Your math is very odd here.
And now you know why i study History
Anyway. I just went back to the read about backgrounds. I was under the impression that you get all the bonus feats listed.
My bad.
With that math, even to me, it seems good.
True20 Adventure RoleplayingTrue fun, true excitement, true adventure: True20! Point-Buy Character Generation (Version 2.5 added)Moderator: The Mod Squad
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And now you know why i study History
Anyway. I just went back to the read about backgrounds. I was under the impression that you get all the bonus feats listed. My bad. With that math, even to me, it seems good.
While Malthusian and The Shadow ideas continue to improve on a great game, it would be the cherry on the cake if it was possible to fix the BAB issue once and for all, it's the difference of being very happy as it stands to being totally happy if this was fixed, it's so close to being there, just that little bit more, If it wasn't for this game I wouldn't be willing to play any sort of d20,
Back when I was playing d20 I thought about dumping BAB and dividing the weapons skills into 8 skills which was One skill for each of the types of weapons (ie Martial One-Handed, Simple Ranged, etc. etc.) Exotic weapons would have their own skills too. If you wanted to keep class distinctions then Fighters would have had acess to all skills while Rogues say would only have access to Simple One-Handed and Simple Ranged. On paper it worked out pretty nice, but I never got the chance to playtest it. For True20 I think the easiest way to do this would be first to decide what types of weapons are most important in your campaign and then come up with some general weapon categories based on that. I'm sure each campaign setting would have its own unique spin on the weapon types which are more important and which types could simply be lumped into one general category. Like modern or futurist settings would break down guns into several categories like Light Pistol, Heavy Pistol, Rifle, Assault Rifle, etc. etc. while at the same time having only one skill for melee weapons (and of course vise versa for fantasy settings). The main thing to keep in mind is making sure that not every character is the same and that characters who choose to play something specific isn't penalized needlessly.
And that they automatically get better as they go up in level.
Though if that's the complaint, why not give them Ordinary levels? You know, those guys with a Combat Bonus of None. True Star Wars (playable)
Monster Roles for easier Narrating. I often come across as a big jerk. This is completely unintentional.
Point-Buy Character Generation – v.2.5
Here's another go at point based character generation. I didn't make any MAJOR changes, just minor tweaks here and there. 1 CAMPAIGN LEVEL The Narrator sets the Campaign Level for the game. All characters begin play with the same number of Character Points based on the assigned Campaign Level. Characters begin with 10 character points plus an additional 7 points per Campaign Level, as well as 6 points to divide among Ability Scores. At any Campaign Level divisible by 6, characters gain an additional Character Point to spend on Ability Scores. Note: That puts a 20th level character at about 159 points.
2 BASIC ABILITIES You have points to divide among Ability Scores; see the table Starting Character Points. Each Ability starts at 0. A +1 bonus to an Ability Score costs 1 point. Taking a –1 penalty on an Ability gains you an extra 1 point. Abilities may not be lower than –5, or exceed +5. Choose your character's Base Combat Bonus. Each +1 bonus costs 4 points. Base Combat Bonus may not exceed the Campaign Level. Choose your character’s Base Saving Throw bonuses (Fortitude, Reflex, and Will), paying 1 point per +1 bonus. Total Save Modifiers are limited to Campaign Level + 5. You may choose one Save to raise +1 above that limit. Toughness Save may only increase above your base Constitution bonus through the purchase of feats and powers. 3 SKILLS Choose skills for your character, paying 1 point per 4 skills ranks. Characters receive bonus points to add to Skill Ranks equal to their INT modifier (1 point for each +1 of INT). Skill Rank may not exceed Campaign Level + 3. 4 FEATS Pay 1 point for each Feat. Characters are limited to a number of Feats equal to the Campaign Level + 5. This limit includes any additional Feats gained through a character’s Background. All Feats are available to everyone. 5 CONVICTION POINTS A character’s Conviction is based on Campaign Level, and is the same for everyone. See Chapter 1 of the True20 Corebook for determining Conviction. 6 POWERS Depending on the games Setting/Genre, some characters may choose to have Supernatural Powers. These can be acquired in place of one of the character’s normal feats (costing 1 point per spell). To use Supernatural Powers, characters must purchase Power Levels, paying 2 points per Level. Power Level may not exceed Campaign Level. Each Supernatural Power has a Power Rank equal to Power Level + 3. NOTE: The use of a Power Level for Powers basically acts as an Adept Level in a classless character generation system. It also allows any character access to Supernatural Powers, dependent on setting/genre, of course. 7 SPECIAL ABILITIES A Character may choose one Special Ability from the following list (Note: new Core Abilities are from the True20 Forums): The Talent You can spend a Conviction Point to use a supernatural power you do not possess, using half the Campaign Level (Rounded up) as your Power level. If you have purchased Power Levels and take The Talent as a Special Ability, then you may use half-Campaign Level (rounded up) or Power Level, whichever is higher, when figuring Power Rank. You may also spend a Conviction Point to eliminate any accumulated modifiers to Fatigue Saving Throws for using Powers. Determination The character can spend a point of Conviction to immediately erase all bruised and hurt conditions (as well as their associated penalties). Expertise The character can spend a point of Conviction to gain four temporary ranks in any skill, including ones in which the character is not trained or ones that cannot be used untrained. This bonus lasts until the end of the scene. Mass Casting You may spend a Conviction point to negate the increase in Difficulty due to targeting multiple subjects with your powers. The number of subjects targeted is limited to the power’s Key Ability score. Attempting to use a power on additional targets above that limit increases the Power and Fatigue Check difficulties according to the rules found in Chapter 4 of the True20 Corebook. Empowered Choose 4 powers at Character Creation. You may spend a Conviction Point to access one power from this list for the duration of the scene, using half the Campaign Level (Rounded up) as your Power Level. If you ever learn one of those powers (via purchasing it later), you may replace it with a new power. Rally the Troops By spending a Conviction Point and a full round action you may rally your allies and help them ignore their wounds. For a number of rounds equal to your Charisma score any allies that are Disabled or Dying may act as if they are Wounded. At the end of the duration of this ability affected allies must make a Constitution check (DC 10). On a failed check the character dies. Resurgence By spending a Conviction Point and a full action you may rally your allies. For a number of rounds equal to your Charisma score any allies within 30 feet of you that are Wounded may ignore the -2 penalty for being Wounded for the duration of the ability. At the end of the ability’s duration the affected allies must make a Recovery check. If they succeed they remain Wounded; a failed check moves them to Disabled. Inspiration The character can spend a Conviction Point to get a sudden inspiration in the form of a hint, clue, or bit of help from the GM. This may even extend to the GM allowing a favorable condition or circumstance for the PC (such as finding a vital item or weapon in the right place at the right time, or finding out the villain’s weakness), though it cannot be used to reverse something that has already happened. 8 ADD IT UP Calculate total Saving Throw bonuses by adding Base Saving Throw bonuses, Ability Modifiers (CON for Toughness and Fortitude, DEX for Reflex and WIS for Will), and any bonuses gained through purchased Feats. Add Base Combat Bonus and DEX modifier, plus any bonuses gained through purchased Feats, to ascertain the character’s Attack Bonus. Note Dodge Bonus (DEX modifier) and Parry Bonus (STR modifier). 9 ADVANCEMENT -Option One: Experience Points- Players receive character points at the end of one or two sessions. 1-3 points depending on a number of things: Overcoming difficult opposition, solving the "case", good roleplaying, etc. They use those points to increase character stats. Once they've received 7 points the Narrator may decide to increase the Campaign Level by one. -Option Two: Narrator Fiat- Whenever the Narrator feels the characters have reached a point of development in the story, 7 points may be awarded for the purpose of advancing the characters, and the Campaign Level may be increased by 1. Last edited by Malthusian on Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-Malthusian
Here’s a 3rd Level Warrior/Adept, created using the rules as written.
TARENT Type: 3rd level Humanoid (Human) (Warrior 2/Adept 1) Size: Medium Speed: 30 ft Abilities: Str +1, Dex +2, Con +1, Int +1, Wis +1, Cha +0 Skills: Bluff 0 (+0), Climb 0 (+1), Concentration 0 (+1), Diplomacy 0 (+0), Disguise 0 (+0), Escape Artist 0 (+2), Gather Info. 0 (+0), Handle Animal 0 (+0), Intimidate 0 (+0), Jump 4 (+5), Notice 6 (+7), Ride 4 (+6), Search 6 (+7), Sense Motive 5 (+6), Stealth 0 (+2), Survival 5 (+6), Swim 0 (+1), Knowledge (Supernatural) 4 (+5) Feats: Run, Weapon Training, Attack Focus (Light Warhammer), Quick Draw, Cleave, Taunt, Power (Combat Sense) Traits: Determination Powers: Combat Sense 4 (+5) DC 12 Combat: Light Warhammer +5, Damage +2 (20/+3), Defense +4/+3, Initiative +2 Saving Throws: Toughness +1, Fortitude +4, Reflex +2, Will +1 Using the Point-Based System, the same character would cost 34.5 points (Abilities 6 + Skills 8.5 (34 Ranks) + Feats 7 + Saves 3 + Combat 8 + Power Level 2 = 34.5). The total starting points for a Campaign Level 3 character is 37 (10 + (7*3) + 6) points. If I had used the point-based system I’d still have 2.5 points left to spend on this character. I think I’d use it to bring the character’s Power Level (currently at power level 1) up to Level 2, costing me another 2 points. And I think I’ll add the .5 point to his Stealth, raising that skill 2 Ranks for a +4 bonus. Here’s the point-based character. TARENT Campaign Level 3, 37 points Size: Medium Speed: 30 ft Abilities: Str +1, Dex +2, Con +1, Int +1, Wis +1, Cha +0 Skills: Bluff 0 (+0), Climb 0 (+1), Concentration 0 (+1), Diplomacy 0 (+0), Disguise 0 (+0), Escape Artist 0 (+2), Gather Info. 0 (+0), Handle Animal 0 (+0), Intimidate 0 (+0), Jump 4 (+5), Notice 6 (+7), Ride 4 (+6), Search 6 (+7), Sense Motive 5 (+6), Stealth 2 (+4), Survival 5 (+6), Swim 0 (+1), Knowledge (Supernatural) 4 (+5) Feats: Run, Weapon Training, Attack Focus (Light Warhammer), Quick Draw, Cleave, Taunt, Power (Combat Sense) Traits: Determination Power Level: 2 Powers: Combat Sense 5 (+6) DC 12 Combat: Light Warhammer +5, Damage +2 (20/+3), Defense +4/+3, Initiative +2 Saving Throws: Toughness +1, Fortitude +4, Reflex +2, Will +1 -Malthusian
I like it. It's clean and nice and simple.
That table helped me understand better your wording of: "plus an additional 7 points per Campaign Level". So a Campaign Level 1st character will have 17 Points + 6 Ability Points to spend. (like i said before, I'll probably rise it to 8 ability points) A concern i have is that Intelligence loses its importance (apart from the number of starting languages), it doesn't give bonus skill points. All other abilities have some direct influence (that is if we use Charisma to influence the amount of Conviction). I know that every ability is important to some skill but still... About the Special Abilities. What do you think of allowing character to buy them. First Special Ability if for free, and then every 6 campaign levels a character can buy a new Special Ability for 5 Points (or something like that).
you hit the nail on the head, it's just far to greneric, making a good boxer a good sniper as well etc, It really should be a group of skills, was thinking maybe using BAB as a floating average, and allowing it to be higher in some skills at the cost of other combat skills, just need a structured system to convert this from d20 and I will be one happy bunny 
That could work -- keeps it easy to convert d20 characters, but lets you say that your character is a better swordsman than an archer. I would put a cap on it, or make bonuses worth more than penalties, to keep people from basically optimizing it so that their character is a master at the double-bladed folding gun-sword of Upper New Dakostan, incompetent at all other weapons, but always seems to be able to use said weapon.
On the other hand, I'm trying to think if any RPG characters I've seen have ever really switched weapons that drastically -- the most I've seen is people carrying ranged weapons if they are primarily melee types, or possibly a dagger/something concealable if the Narrator is a stickler for Making the Town Guard/Police/Space Forces Antsy if You Carry the Big Guns into Towns. A tradeoff between attack and defense might be a little more useful, and then just relying on the non-proficiency penalties to simulate weapons the character wasn't trained in.
I think jsut converting the True20 rules into a point buy is genius. I don't think tweaking the combat bonus into a set of skills will be helpful. At that point it changes the lightness of the game enough to make it not True20 (IMHO).
I like the v2.5 and I am seriously considering adopting this for my game. I need to investigate further tonight when I get home but so far, it looks cool.
I had considered using INT as some kind of limit to the number of Skills available to the character, similar to the Feat Limit. Such as, "A character may only purchase Ranks in (INT + 5) Skills". Another option would be to give the character free points to spend on Skills based on INT. Either 1 point per +1 INT or INT/2 rounded up. I'd go with the half INT option myself, just to keep the points down.
Thanks trechriron. I'm actually quite happy with 2.5 myself. Enough so that I doubt I'll be making anymore changes to it (except to consider the INT issue from above). If you choose to use this, please let me know how it goes. Even though I keep working on the point-based system, I've yet to have an opportunity to play-test it in an actual game. -Malthusian
Pathfinder: I helped edit Caliphate Nights and contributed a power, some feat ideas, helped fine-tune arcane philosophies, suggested changes to some mechanics, shared some of my historical knowledge and basically gave general advice. The book is Aaron's baby, but I was an assistant midwife. :)
As for AoO, the writers sent me an email asking if they could use one of my ideas from the boards in their book, giving credit of course. Naturally I said they could, but I think it's probably best to let you be surprised by which one. :) Malthusian: I like! It just keeps getting better and better. Strictly speaking, it should alternate 7 and 8 points per level, but that's a nitpick. And it's probably a fair trade for the increased flexibility anyway. (Also, I doubt very much that most people will buy saves as high as the RAW call for.) While your "experience point" idea has merit, it's worth mentioning that you can also level True20 style... the Narrator decides when it happens and then just hands out the new points. A question about the Talent (and Empowered): If one has bought a Power Level that's above half the Campaign Level, do Talent-based powers default to that instead? And I think giving the Talent to people with no Power Levels makes for some very cool character concepts - people with a touch of power, but who don't use it all the time. Empowered seems quite weak compared to the Talent. There should be some benefit to being limited to two powers. Maybe you get your full level as Power Level? Or maybe you gain access for a whole scene, not just for one round? (I think I prefer the second option, personally. And I might make it four powers, not two.) When you say that Supernatural Resistance lasts until the end of the scene, do you mean it works against any powers used against the person? Or just the original power that it was invoked against? Does it work even against friendly powers? Can you turn it off? I like Inspiration as a Core Ability very much! This matches the way things work in fiction a lot of the time. And it's a great way to make a "lucky" character without unbalancing mechanics. What's the rationale for letting one save go +1 over the cap? I see that it's to mimic the "good save", but that's +2 in the vanilla game. Pathfinder again: About BAB, how's this work: You can invest your points of Combat Bonus into particular styles of fighting. For example, a 10th level Warrior might have +6 in Florentine (ie, two-weapon fighting), a +3 in sword-and-shield, and a +1 in unarmed brawling. To make it a little more reasonable, double the Combat Bonus, but say you can only invest up to your level in a particular style. So you can have two styles maxed out. Then there's a new feat or two: Improved Weapon Training (Warrior) You gain new Combat Bonus points equal to your level. You still cannot raise any individual style higher than your level. (Alternatively, this could be a General feat, but in that case, the max would depend on one's role. A pure Adept couldn't have any style greater than half his level, for example.) Style Mastery (Warrior) Choose any combat style you have equal to your level. You may raise it one point above the cap, using existing Combat Bonus points. This feat may be taken more than once. Each time, you may apply it to the same style or a different one. (However, you may not go more than +3 over the cap.) EDIT: Thinking this over, it doesn't quite work. How about a permanent +1 bonus with that style? Versatile Fighter (Warrior) Any style you've spent at least one combat-bonus point in, you may use at a bonus of half your level. Even styles you haven't spent any points in may be used at a bonus of a quarter your level. (Thus, a 20th level fighter can pick up a weapon he's never even heard of before, and use it as well as a 5th level Warrior who's used it all his life. Seems reasonable.) "All right, I am not the Shadow. You have nothing at all to worry about. Except, oh, wait, I'm pointing a gun at you."
--The Shadow
High Praise indeed... Thanks Shadow. But, as you know, you started all this, I simply followed in the footsteps of greatness. 
I agree. That would save on some of the inherent book keeping needed for the experience point system.
I forgot to make that point. Yes, if a character has purchased Power Levels and takes The Talent as a Special Ability, then The Talent defaults to Power Level to determine Power Rank. Well, I snagged Empowered from you, and initially you had it set to 4 powers. I dropped it down to 2 to try to balance it with the Campaign Level limit placed on those that would buy powers normally (Campaign Level + 5 Feats). Or, do you think the use of Conviction alone would balance that? If so, then maybe 4 powers wouldn't be overmuch, with a Power Level equal to half Campaign Level, and access gained for the whole scene.
Okay, another Ability snagged from someone else. Kommando tweaked this one, based on Creature Traits from the Corebook. I didn't really give it a thorough look, but now that you mention it, it does need some clarifications. I wasn't really happy with some of it to begin with, particularly the Check. I'd like the Resistance Check to have something to do with the characters themselves, to show that the resistance comes from some inner source. Maybe d20 + CHA? Or, better yet, no roll at all. Instead, perhaps it'd be more Core Ability-like if, with the use of a point of Conviction the character could negate some of the effects of a Spell cast against him; sort of a natural resistance to magical energy. Yeah, I think I'll need to work on this one a bit more.
Again, that one came from Kommando.
The rationale was exactly that: to mimic the 'good save'. I went with +1 simply because I thought +2 might be too much. I'll look over it and see if +2 might be the better option.
Heh... Leave it up to The Shadow to point out the flaws.  Well, at the least, the rough patches. Thanks Shadow for showing me that it could be better and pointing out things that should be made clearer.-Malthusian
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