Shiney Happy- waitaminute

[Dragonspawn]

The point was "what if there are people who would need to use sorcery in order to achieve the ends that they desired." If they did use sorcery to achieve those ends they would be in violation of the law because they were using sorcery (maybe opression was too strong a word, but you get the idea).

"In my heart I know that I want to be a Lich, but you denying me access to sorcery only shows how hypocritical your laws really are."

Aldis is open... but it ain't that open.

But you are replacing a moral grey area (changing ones own gender) with what is held to be in most fantasy worlds a definitive black or evil area (becoming a litch), and therefore rendering the situation straighforward and much less interesting.

The point is Sorcery can under some circumstances be the only means to an end, such that neither the means nor the end is inherently evil save for the label of sorcery. It is in these grey areas that I find the most interesting conflicts arise, because there is no clear "right" or "wrong".

You can kill or imprison an adept for attempting to become a Litch and nobody will question who is in the right and who is in the wrong.

But if you kill or imprison an Adept for using Sorcery to change their own bodies (be it gender, weight, aparent age or whatever) you have a much more morally ambiguous situation.

[reverend keith]

The point is Sorcery can under some circumstances be the only means to an end, such that neither the means nor the end is inherently evil save for the label of sorcery.

The means are very important in this situation, given that Sorcery and the act of using it is clearly painted in BR to be evil and unnatural. Except for some very rare situations, using Sorcery always risks corruption.

"Light-Aligned Sorcerers?" sidebar on page 126 pretty much sums it up the problem with using Sorcery for good or morally ambiguous reasons.

But if you kill or imprison an Adept for using Sorcery to change their own bodies (be it gender, weight, aparent age or whatever) you have a much more morally ambiguous situation.

I hear you when it comes to making interesting moral situations for gaming, given that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

"Flesh Shaping interferes with the natural form of a creature and is a distinctly unnatural process. Using this arcanum, especially on an unwilling subject, is considered sorcery. At the Narrator’s discretion, an absolutely selfless and harmless use of Flesh Shaping might provide a bonus on the check to avoid Corruption, or even no check at all, but these instances should be rare."

So, if your narrator is cool with it, then in rare situations one can use Flesh Fhaping for absolutely selfless and harmless uses ... and hopefully avoid the Corruption check altogether. Otherwise, it's as dark of an act as using Sorcerer's Grasp on puppies. That doesn't imply casual useage to me, like changing one's weight.


Personally, I don't see even the enlightened Aldeans cutting transgenders any slack when it comes to Flesh Shaping, especially since it really hasn't been that long since they have thrown off the yoke of the Sorcerer Kings. Not to mention the fact that in the BR universe every corrupt person rises as a vampire after death.

Again, I don't think that Aldeans would have any problem with transgender folks. For me, it's talking about using Sorcery for good ends that crosses the line.

[Dragonspawn]

Other ideas for adding a dark side to Blue Rose... (I'll warn you that some of these thoughts are really out there!)

1) Adding bits of the Cthulhu mythos always makes any setting a million times creepier.

2) A Rhydan-magic deer conspiracy. What if the animals are really the ones who run the show. What is they in secret treat people the way modern day people treat animals. (Performing experiments on them, etc.) Maybe the an formed Aldis to manipulate humans into protecting them from the Litch King.

3) What if the magic deer is actually another Litch King in disguise? What if another lich King secretly rules Jarzon. (The setting would start looking a bit like Ravenloft.)

[Rubio]

Other ideas for adding a dark side to Blue Rose... (I'll warn you that some of these thoughts are really out there!)

Ahh, cool, but my original sorta question was whether or not the setting as written had any dirty secrets and/or not-so-rosey aspects of it. After all, it was written to be somebody's idea of a utopia, but one person's heaven is another's hell and all that.

That said, some neat ideas here.

1) Adding bits of the Cthulhu mythos always makes any setting a million times creepier.

Eh. To me, the game is geared toward "Romantic Fantasy" and not "Dealing With The Horrible Evil From Beyond That Will Drive You Insane You Really Might As Well Not Bother". If you add cthulu stuff to the setting, you're really making it into a game of CoC in a fantasy setting.

2) A Rhydan-magic deer conspiracy. What if the animals are really the ones who run the show. What is they in secret treat people the way modern day people treat animals. (Performing experiments on them, etc.) Maybe the an formed Aldis to manipulate humans into protecting them from the Litch King.

This one's kinda out there, but it actually makes a lot of sense. After all, plenty of the intelligent animals are more than capable of subsisting on human flesh (just as humans can eat dead animals, unless I missed something in the setting and not being vegan is a sin up there with Venerating-A-Patriarchal/Non-Earth-Mother-Religious-Figure), and they're a lot better equipped to survive in the untainted wilderness than scrawny man-apes.

3) What if the magic deer is actually another Litch King in disguise? What if another lich King secretly rules Jarzon. (The setting would start looking a bit like Ravenloft.)

Whoa... in which case the Lich King of Kern becomes the least of all evils... I mean, hell, in that case, he's at least honest about being a dominator intent on the subjugation of the people to his vision of reality.

I don't think I'd ever be able to convince any of my players to play this setting, but if I did, one of the things I'd do is have more and more sorcerers show up as a direct result of the sovereign's policy on allowing the study of dark arts. From there, I'd have:

1) A military coup to put Aldis "back on the path of light", where a majority of the population were in favor of deposing the Sovereign for the danger her policies had brought about. Naturally, this is all sorts of unpleasantness, and while the factions are fighting against each other, more sorcerous activity springs up to cause havoc.

2) An influx of crusaders from Jarzon who are intent on putting down the darkness that has crossed into their borders (no not every Aldean they way they've been characterized, but actually only sorcerers and darkfiends) After that, plenty of Jarzoni missionaries from one of the more touchy-feely aspects of the church that are intent on peacably spreading their message about abstaining from arcana (pointing to all the sorcerous activity with a "see-I-told-you-so" look) and actually gaining converts. Now comes the problem that the Cathol- errr, Jarzoni church is generally considered to be a Bad Thing, but people honestly decided to convert of their own free will. Should they be kicked out before they cause trouble? Should the church be outlawed?

Hmm... shame I'll likely never run any of it.

[reverend keith]

Ahh, cool, but my original sorta question was whether or not the setting as written had any dirty secrets and/or not-so-rosey aspects of it.

You should definately check out the World of Aldea.

What about the Shadowgate under the Soverigns palace? What lengths would some nobles (or even the soverign) go to insure that it remains a secret? Especially from a group of dedicated light-aligned adventurers that believe that any study involving sorcery and sorcerous items leads to corruption? What if those pure-hearted adventurers are right? What if the finest Aldean adept researchers really are being lured into corruption, under the pretext of fighting for the light? What if they have formed a Shadow cult, and perhaps allied with the The Cult of the Crimson Eye (which is itself controlled by Jarek the Lich King)? What if Queen Jaellin suffers the same fate as King Valin did due to the machinations of this scholarly cult and their research? What if your best ally to defeat the corrupt nobles was Lord Sayvin, who is on the footsteps of corruption himself?

All I have to say is that World of Aldea is a cool book.

[Rubio]

You should definately check out the World of Aldea.

*blink, blink at rest of post*

Clearly I do. Sheesh. Only Green Ronin could have me seriously considering shelling out my rapidly-dwindling supply of legal tender currency for a book about a setting that I find to border on the absurd.

What about the Shadowgate under the Soverigns palace? What lengths would some nobles (or even the soverign) go to insure that it remains a secret? Especially from a group of dedicated light-aligned adventurers that believe that any study involving sorcery and sorcerous items leads to corruption? What if those pure-hearted adventurers are right? What if the finest Aldean adept researchers really are being lured into corruption, under the pretext of fighting for the light? What if they have formed a Shadow cult, and perhaps allied with the The Cult of the Crimson Eye (which is itself controlled by Jarek the Lich King)? What if Queen Jaellin suffers the same fate as King Valin did due to the machinations of this scholarly cult and their research? What if your best ally to defeat the corrupt nobles was Lord Sayvin, who is on the footsteps of corruption himself?

Now THAT is what I'm talking about.

[Nightstorm]

How about this to spice things up. The Sovergin is crazy or has become corrupted. That throws a wrench into things. Everything is based on a lie or at least is not as pure as it seems on the surface.

[Stareyes]

Aldis has had at least one corrupted ruler, and one apparently-delusional ruler. Game canon has that eventually he and she were removed from office. However, there's nothing saying that the PCs have to be playing in Jaelin's reign. They could well be set in the reign of King Valin (where things were pretty bad near the end with the Noble's Council undermining the king and the rhydan refusing to go near him, and it was pretty early in Aldis's history, and no one knew if the Golden Hart would remove a ruler if s/he became corrupted).

[Steve Kenson]

...it was pretty early in Aldis's history, and no one knew if the Golden Hart would remove a ruler if s/he became corrupted.

It's also worth noting that no one really knows if the Golden Hart will always do this or if the past occasions have been special cases. After all, it's not like there's an instruction book or anything. There's also the issue of when the Golden Hart will act, if it does at all. I'd say it's fairly safe to assume the Aldins don't depend on the Hart to always come to their rescue whenever they have problems, although they have faith and certainly hope to have its continued protection and goodwill.

In other words, the Narrator is free to decide what happens and chalk it up to "the Golden Hart moves in mysterious ways."

[Klaus Æ. Mogensen]

Aldis has had at least one corrupted ruler, and one apparently-delusional ruler.

This shows that the Golden Hart has quite a poor track record. Out of fourteen sovereigns, one went badly corrupt and another badly insane. Few historical hereditary royal lines have done quite this bad. Similarly, the Blue Rose Scepter in no way guarantees that the selected nobles don't turn bad later - let us assume at least a one-in-seven fault rate like for the sovereigns (who are supposed to be the best of the best).

Given this track record, I would imagine that Aldis has quiet a large underground political movement that wants Aldis to be ruled by elected or hereditary rulers without any interference from fallible divine powers of questionable origin. Conflicts between this movement and the current regime may not have any clearcut heroes and villains.

If the player characters uncover a plot to overturn the queen and introduce a democratically elected government, I think they would face a serious moral conflict: Democracy or divinely appointed (and provably fallible) monarchy?

- Klaus

[Reef]

Aldis has had at least one corrupted ruler, and one apparently-delusional ruler.

This shows that the Golden Hart has quite a poor track record. Out of fourteen sovereigns, one went badly corrupt and another badly insane. Few historical hereditary royal lines have done quite this bad. Similarly, the Blue Rose Scepter in no way guarantees that the selected nobles don't turn bad later - let us assume at least a one-in-seven fault rate like for the sovereigns (who are supposed to be the best of the best).

Given this track record, I would imagine that Aldis has quiet a large underground political movement that wants Aldis to be ruled by elected or hereditary rulers without any interference from fallible divine powers of questionable origin. Conflicts between this movement and the current regime may not have any clearcut heroes and villains.

If the player characters uncover a plot to overturn the queen and introduce a democratically elected government, I think they would face a serious moral conflict: Democracy or divinely appointed (and provably fallible) monarchy?

- Klaus

Actually, one corrupt and one going mad out of fourteen is probably a much better average than most hereditary monarchies. And you probably don't want to start calculating odds on getting a corrupt ruler in a democracy, if our world is any indication.

I suspect the Hart picks the best person for Aldis at that time. It probably can't predict the future. If two decades later the king is tempted to the dark side, that can hardly be blamed on the Hart. When monarchs did become unsuitable, the Hart showed up and unelected them.

[reverend keith]

Aldis has had at least one corrupted ruler, and one apparently-delusional ruler. Game canon has that eventually he and she were removed from office.

King Valin the Tainted was removed from office because he was possessed by a darkfiend and driven mad after trying to destroy a shadow gate. In that case, the Golden Hart returned, kicked him in the head and stripped him of office.

Queen Larai the Mad was never removed from office until her final days. She appearently heard voices of people that no one could ever sense, but also they never found any evidence that she was shadow touched, being haunted by ghosts, or had any illness. She simply seemed to be interacting with people that nobody in Aldis could sense. Despite all of this, her entry World of Aldea talks about how her reign was prosperous for Aldis and the only difference was that few people had a desire to socially interacted with her. It also mentions that we Larai was quite elderly, she spent more and more time with her "ghostly" friends and less with the duties of being the soverign. At that point, the Golden Heart appeared, licked the Golden Crescent off her forehead, and then chose a new soverign.

So, from our POV, she was batshit crazy... but from the Golden Heart's POV, the realm was prosperous and did well under Queen Larai's reign. IMO, it's hard to argue with that fact.

[reverend keith]

This shows that the Golden Hart has quite a poor track record. Out of fourteen sovereigns, one went badly corrupt and another badly insane. Few historical hereditary royal lines have done quite this bad.

Our world doesn't have to worry about corruption or sorcery either. King Valin went mad after trying to destroy a corrupt Shadow Gate, which is something you don't see real world monarchs trying to accomplish. The other I've already listed in my previous post, and I'd dispute the "badly insane" label. Yep, she was crazy... but despite this the realm prospered under her rule.

Similarly, the Blue Rose Scepter in no way guarantees that the selected nobles don't turn bad later - let us assume at least a one-in-seven fault rate like for the sovereigns (who are supposed to be the best of the best).

This is no different than the real world... except that we don't have an item to sense if newly entitled nobles are light aligned or not.

(Also, I would dispute the one-in-seven number, because I don't see think that percentage of nobles would be trying to destroy shadow gates. Besides, we are talking about extrapolating the behaviors of a large percentage of people from a woefully small sample size.)

Given this track record, I would imagine that Aldis has quiet a large underground political movement that wants Aldis to be ruled by elected or hereditary rulers without any interference from fallible divine powers of questionable origin. Conflicts between this movement and the current regime may not have any clearcut heroes and villains.

If the player characters uncover a plot to overturn the queen and introduce a democratically elected government, I think they would face a serious moral conflict: Democracy or divinely appointed (and provably fallible) monarchy?

This sounds like a cool idea to add into your Blue Rose game. ("If we are truely light aligned and have the freedom to grow however we want, why do we need to follow the will of the Golden Hart? We are not children. We have grown up, and we do not need our parents to lock us in their homes to protect us from the world.")

On the flip side, the Golden Hart played a huge role in helping to defeat the Sorcerer Kings. I can see why citizens of Aldis treat it with the utmost respect, and feel that if it was wise enough to get Aldis this far, it's continued support is not something to be ignored. Additionally, they can easily point to the fact that throwing away the Blue Rose scepter and democratically electing the soverigns of Aldis doesn't mean that the people are somehow more fallible than the Golden Hart. While no one in the universe is perfect (even the gods of twilight), at least you know that the Golden Hart is a being of pure light and has the best intentions for you. Compare that to leaving affairs to nobles who have a chance of being corrupt. (Lord Sayvin, anyone?)

[Rubio]

While no one in the universe is perfect (even the gods of twilight), at least you know that the Golden Hart is a being of pure light and has the best intentions for you. Compare that to leaving affairs to nobles who have a chance of being corrupt. (Lord Sayvin, anyone?)

Are we sure that the Golden Hart is a being of pure light? A good shepherd defends the flock from the wolves, but a few sheep are destined to be slaughtered, and be that much fatter because they rely on the sheperd for protection.
As for having a chance of being corrupt, so does Queen Jaelin. But because the Magic D- Sorry, sorry, Golden Hart chose her, she's above reproach until such time that the glittery venison kicks her? Frankly, I think that more people would want to take a more direct hand in their own governance and not just rely on "divine" intervention.

[Reef]

Frankly, I think that more people would want to take a more direct hand in their own governance and not just rely on "divine" intervention.

You've got a much more optimistic viewpoint of people than I do . In my experience, most people are more than content to let someone else do all the hard work. Heck, look at our world, where if half the elegible people bother to vote it's considered a huge turnout. Add in the fact that the Aldeans have a 'divine guardian', who has defended them in the past, and (on the surface at least) seems to have the good of the country at heart when choosing...well, I can see most citizens being happy with that. Those in power, well, I can see them wanting a more direct hand. But that just proves that they probably shouldn't be on the throne in the first place.