true20 complicated ?

[cra2]

The trick is to use as few rolls to resolve combat as possible.

amen!

I'm totally new to true20 and I just looked at this:
http://casadeja.com/CASADEJA/GAMING/MECHS/Combat101.pdf

OMG. Shoot me in the head, plz.
I started reading up on true20 because someone (obviously a liar) told me it was a simple, streamined version of d20. Now that I'm actually looking it over... holy cow. I'd run Microlite d20 before I ran this.

In our now-resting campaign, you pick a skill (like brawling, sword, axe, etc) and you make your attack roll. The defender chooses to parry (rolling his weapon skill) or to dodge/tumble (rolling that skill).
If your number's higher, you hit him. If not, he dodged or parried.
If you hit the damage is the difference between your rolls.
So if you beat him by 12, he takes 12 points of damage.

2 rolls.
I attack, you defend.
Instantly we know if I hit, and if so, how much dmg was done.

True20 appears to be WAY more complicated than that.
In a single combat, 7 players, 2 npcs, and 5 baddie bosses all have to track separate wound conditions (and associated modifiers) ?????
Holy cow!
Please tell me I'm missing something.
That looks like a single fight or two could take up the whole session.

[The Shadow]

That looks like a single fight or two could take up the whole session.

They don't, though. They just don't.

There are a few clunky things about True20 core rules, I'll give you that. Virtually everybody has moved to Baduin's streamlined damage rules, for example, and there's also my streamlined fatigue rules inspired by Baduin. Something like those things is almost certain to make it into True20 2e.

But for the most part, it works better and faster than you'd think. Don't forget that you don't have to track *anything* for minions - one hit and they're down. You only track stuff for important, named characters.

[elf23]

I don't know your gaming history, but my feeling is that for people who are coming from a d20 / AD&D background (such as myself, for example), True20 is very much simplified! That's my experience anyway.

As to wound tracking, yes that is probably the most complicated part of the game. (btw that combat 101 sheet seems equally arcane to my eyes, and i've played True20 for a while!)

Baduin's streamlined Toughness system here is used by a lot of people here, i think.

Personally i've used an even more streamlined version, inspired by Star Wars Saga, and discussed here. It unifies the fatigue and damage conditions into a simple modifier which is applied to all d20 rolls. I've found it works really well. Here's a PDF of it on scribd.

If that all still feels too complicated to you, then as you say maybe a more rules light system would be more in line with what you and your group are after.

[cra2]

Personally i've used an even more streamlined version, inspired by Star Wars Saga,

I've heard over and over that people LOVE d6 star wars. Is that the "saga" version?
And if so, why would you mod t20 vs just playing that?
What's the pro/con?

and discussed here. It unifies the fatigue and damage conditions into a simple modifier which is applied to all d20 rolls.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I'll look that over with hope in my eyes.
Don't wanna force the players to make NEW PCs so I'm hoping to somehow make t20 work.

The first thing I thought of when I saw all those arbitrary damage conditions that would all but REQUIRE referencing a table or chart every time someone took a swing was, "why didn't they just say you take a -1 to all your rolls, then a -2, then a -3, etc?" (or -2, -4, -6, whatever's statistically appropriate) Then, instead of altering this or that, you'd just know to knock -2 off any d20 roll until healed. One would argue that you shouldn't suffer a WISDOM check or SKILL check but I'd suggest that, due to the pain (or even a bump on the head), you're not thinking straight and you DO suffer on ALL your checks.

Is that sorta what your system does?
I apologize, I got too excited. I'll go read it.

If that all still feels too complicated to you, then as you say maybe a more rules light system would be more in line with what you and your group are after.

I've asked on other forums, what's a fast, simple, logical resolution system that has just enough crunch for the players to enjoy tweaking their PCs and making tactical choices in combat.
Over and over, people refer me to Savage Worlds.
But even that had these arbitrary damage conditions you'd have to track for rounds after the actual combat roll was made and it turned my group off.
But now, looking at the core t20 rules... I'd play Savage in a heartbeat! lol.

[ValhallaGH]

Virtually everybody has moved to Baduin's streamlined damage rules,

Glad to know that I'm virtually nobody. Or is it that I'm the exception that keeps it from being universal?

I've heard over and over that people LOVE d6 star wars. Is that the "saga" version?

No. Saga edition was the last edition of the Star Wars role playing game released by Wizards of the Coast.

And if so, why would you mod t20 vs just playing that?
What's the pro/con?

Yes, I would. I did. I enjoy it more and think it is more fun.

Over and over, people refer me to Savage Worlds.
But even that had these arbitrary damage conditions you'd have to track for rounds after the actual combat roll was made and it turned my group off.

Try the Prose Descriptive Qualities system (PDQ). No conditions, 18 pages of rules, and it's decent.
Or Amber Diceless roleplaying. Or LARPing. From the sound of it, 99.5% of all RPG systems are too arbitrary for your group.

Good luck.

[cra2]

Try the Prose Descriptive Qualities system (PDQ). No conditions, 18 pages of rules, and it's decent. Or Amber Diceless roleplaying. Or LARPing.

I've heard wonderful things about PDQ, actually. Just haven't had a chance to try it yet.

From the sound of it, 99.5% of all RPG systems are too arbitrary for your group.

If that's the sound of it, then you're not listening.
I said, "a fast, simple, logical resolution system that has just enough crunch for the players to enjoy tweaking their PCs and making tactical choices in combat."

Diceless and Larping doesn't qualify.
(Though we've had fun doing both on occasion.)

In terms of lighter mechanics, we were THRILLED with Mountain Witch - always creates an interesting story. But that's more narrativist in its mechanics.

For traditional, dicey games, we enjoyed Agon and had great success with Fuzion but ran it a bit streamlined and we only did it in a wild west setting so we don't know how the magic system would hold up in a fantasy setting. The only reason we didn't try it out for this (fantasy) campaign was because a couple of the players are from d20 backgrounds and I have TONS of d20 modules and materials ready to go.

I think the notion of rolling my d20 vs your defense (whether it's an active defense like dodge or a passive defense like AC) is fine, normal, traditional, etc.

And if I rolled a d8 at the same time, I could tell you, within that single roll of the dice, that "I hit for 7 dmg." Then you'd knock your HP down from 27 to 20 and we'd move on.

That's like... 1 roll (of 2 dice) and we move onto the next turn.
Or... worst-case scenario, if there's an active defense, then it's my attack roll of 2 dice while at the same time you've tossed your Defense roll onto the table. Again, one swift motion and we compare the results showing on the dice before us and move on.

No table or chart to consult. No saves or extra rolls.
No re-adjusting your follow-up rolls and actions based on that exchange.
"You can now do X type of move next turn, but not Y. And you take a penalty on THESE rolls but not THOSE. And you can interrupt everything to make a recovery roll, which is a different formula, and we have to note when you did it because there's a time window for when you can/can't make that roll. And then we need to...." (holy cow)

I'm ranting at this point, but... man, true20 seems unnecessarily complicated.
Not sure what the extra tracking and rolls add to the story or player fun.

Honestly, it's all my fault, but I assumed true20 was d3.5 streamlined.
Now I'm not convinced it's any faster than 3.5.
In 3.x, if you do 10 dmg, I go, "ok, 100hp - 10 = 90hp."
Takes less than a second. Next player goes.

In t20, I say I did X dmg.
Then you say, not so fast, I get to roll a defense.
Ok...
then you say, darn.. well now I'll check toughness.
oooookkk.....
then you say, you did Y dmg condition to me.
Hold on whilst I apply said temporary modifiers to some of my future rolls and note the restricted choices I have in the following turn(s).
ooooooooookkkkkkkkkkkkkk....
Oh wait, I shall apply conviction or a recovery roll or some further interruption....
(bang! ...thump)

Only AFTER the Players made their PCs did I realize this.
And now I wish I'd considered Microlite d20 or Perfect20 first.
Shame on me.
Darned job and kids.

Either way, I'm willing to give anything the ol' college try.
So I'll look at baduin's mods and the unified damage/fatigue system proposed above.

[elf23]

Yeah it seems to be quite a division among certain types of RPGs: hit points vs conditions. In this sphere of RPGs it seems to be that simple. They both have pros and cons. Personally i like condition systems.

I definitely agree though that True20's native condition system is way too complicated, hence i've used a series of progressively simpler versions. But if you really just want a hit points system, then maybe you should think about either playing a game that natively uses hp, or look at modding True20 to use hp. I've not looked into that much personally, but i remember some threads on this forum about it.

The thing is though, at base the True20 damage resolution system is just 2 dice rolls. Attack roll. Toughness save. (And you don't need a table for Toughness saves, it's just succeed / fail / fail by 5 / etc). That's simple. And using Conviction to reroll the attack roll or Toughness save is simple - you can do that for any die roll, so it's completely normal and expected within the system. It's all the -1 to this and that, -2 to the other which is complex.

[The Shadow]

Glad to know that I'm virtually nobody. :o Or is it that I'm the exception that keeps it from being universal? :?

The latter. You are the first person I've seen state on the boards that they are still using the core damage rules. There may well be others, but they haven't spoken up. Whereas a simple search will find dozens of posts singing Hallelujah for the Baduin system.

[cra2]

But if you really just want a hit points system, then maybe you should think about either playing a game that natively uses hp,

I don't really have a preference.
I want whatever's fastest yet with some tactical choices (so the players don't feel like they're just flipping a coin vs the monster; 50/50).

I'm fine with conditions, if it's intended to speed things up (which in t20, it is clearly NOT).
I think Savage Worlds (or something I can't recall) sped things up with conditions by saying that unless you beat the "toughness" (or AC or defense or whatever they called it), it was nothing but a bruise - keep playing. Then if you made an injury - by doing 5 more than the required "to hit" number, you got an "injury." But rather than an injury causing you to recalculate all of your modified stats and their interdependencies, you simply took a -2 on all rolls (mental, physical, social, didn't matter).
There were no recoveries and time-dependent rolls. After the "scene" you just wiped off the "bruises" and moved on. If you had an injury, someone rolled a med skill. If they failed, you needed to rest (or find a heal potion). Pretty straight forward.
At least I think that's what I recall.
Wish I remembered which one.

The thing is though, at base the True20 damage resolution system is just 2 dice rolls. Attack roll. Toughness save.

I don't have the rules in front of me. But don't you have a defense roll BEFORE the toughness roll?

That's simple. And using Conviction to reroll the attack roll or Toughness save is simple - you can do that for any die roll,

I don't think it's difficult. I think it adds another interruption to the flow of the game.
If it were the only one, that'd be fine.
But it, on top of several others, make them all start to pile up.
Isn't there then another roll? A recovery check?

I saw d3.5 combats take several hours to get around the table a few times.
By they time the fight finished, everyone forgot what they were fighting about.
Lost all the drama and plot movement.

I can't fathom how t20 stacks up. But am willing to try it.
I'll look at the streamlined mods you referred to, thanks.

[The Shadow]

Then if you made an injury - by doing 5 more than the required "to hit" number, you got an "injury." But rather than an injury causing you to recalculate all of your modified stats and their interdependencies, you simply took a -2 on all rolls (mental, physical, social, didn't matter).
There were no recoveries and time-dependent rolls. After the "scene" you just wiped off the "bruises" and moved on. If you had an injury, someone rolled a med skill. If they failed, you needed to rest (or find a heal potion). Pretty straight forward.

This sounds quite a lot like True20, actually. What differences are you seeing? Since when does True20 require you to "recalculate all of your modified stats"? If you mean keep track of the modifiers for bruises and hurts, then yes, that's the clunky part I mentioned above, that Baduin's system eliminates.

I don't have the rules in front of me. But don't you have a defense roll BEFORE the toughness roll?

No. What makes you think there is? An attack roll is made vs. defense + 10.

Isn't there then another roll? A recovery check?

Only after combat is over - sometimes quite a long time after. I'm starting to think you really don't have a grip on the system yet.

[cra2]

This sounds quite a lot like True20, actually. What differences are you seeing? Since when does True20 require you to "recalculate all of your modified stats"? If you mean keep track of the modifiers for bruises and hurts, then yes, that's the clunky part I mentioned above, that Baduin's system eliminates.

yep, I'll have to read baduin's system next.

No. What makes you think there is? An attack roll is made vs. defense + 10.

So "defense +10" is a static number, like armor class used to be.

Isn't there an active defense too? Dodge or parry or something?

Only after combat is over - sometimes quite a long time after. I'm starting to think you really don't have a grip on the system yet.

just now figure that out?
lol.

[The Shadow]

Isn't there an active defense too? Dodge or parry or something?

I don't know that I'd call it 'active'. Basically, in addition to your defense from your role, you also add your Dex (Dodge) or Str (Parry). Parry can't be used against ranged attacks. So basically you have two numbers for defense; if your Dex is higher than your Str, you'll pretty much use your Dodge for everything. (Unless you have feats that require you to use Parry to activate them.) If your Str is higher than your Dex, then you'll probably want to use Parry for melee and Dodge for ranged.

[ValhallaGH]

There's no reason the other player can't roll their Toughness at the exact same time you roll the attack.
(Or, if you're using a 'roll damage' variant, roll attack and damage at the same time.)

Defenses are static. They are a number (called a "bonus") added to 10. While you can make them be active rolls very easily, that's an entirely optional house rule.

The Toughness Save system is designed to do two things: 1) give characters the potential to be unharmed by a nearly infinite number of attacks; 2) give the characters the potential to be totally incapacitated by a single lucky strike.
On the face of it, those two goals are incompatible, but by using a saving throw, it becomes possible. Successful saves mean that characters don't take any injury. Minor failures make the character more likely to have a major failure, but that's it. Major failures can instantly disable, or even kill, a character.
It's dynamic, moderately realistic, and removes the mechanistic predictability of an hp system. And putting in a second chance mechanic (Conviction to re-roll) gives important characters some resistance to bad dice luck.

Powers do take some adjudication. Flexible systems always do. But the Narrator is in charge, and what he says at the table is final (for that session). (If your players convince you between sessions to change a ruling then that's fine, but the table isn't the time for those discussions.)
When in doubt, decide what is reasonable and go with it for the rest of the session. If you need to revisit it then do so when you have some leisure time to think it through.

Good luck.

[Black Wings]

The important thing is that if you use hit points, like Baduin's system, your maximum HP always stay the same. Similarly, Toughness doesn't increase automatically as you level up. So, unlike in D&D, you don't have this eternal escalation of HP making fights last forever at higher levels. This is what makes T20 way better than D&D, I think: no matter how skilled you are, one good stab can kill you. It's faster AND more realistic, and that's rare.