teleport question

[cra2]

Hi, I'm a newb to true20.

Teleport seems to be pretty powerful for a beginning PC.
In d20 it's not something you try til like 5th level or later.

What are the restrictions in true20?
Seems like 1) is weight of objects carried - but that doesn't specify if your own clothes count against you.
And 2) is your familiarity with the subject (in this case, a place). How do you define familiarity? Any place I can see?
So I can attack then teleport across the battlefield 50' so the victim can't attack me back?

Do the difficulties (familiarity and weight) stack?

thanks for any help,
cra2

[Nonei]

Hello,

I am not sure on the first part of your question, but "familiarity" is defined at the beginning of the chapter in a box... sorry, am at work so I don't have the page number.

[cra2]

I searched these forums on the word teleport and nothing relevant to my questions came up.
That's why I posted.
But since then a friend has shown me that these very same questions have been debated on here several times before. Dunno how I missed it.

I'll go sift through those and see if they have an answer.

...begin rant...
Problem is... I've now turned my players off to the prospect of using True20 which I told them was an easier d20 variant. Because noone's got time to figure out the intended interpretation of these vague rules. And I don't feel like I'm saying anything shocking since the threads I've read so far support that assertion. There are MANY people asking the same kinds of questions.
Sure we can house rule it.. but that's not what why we read rulebooks.
We don't want to pay for a rulebook that reads, "go figure it out on your own."
...end rant...

The rules refer to weight of persons/gear carried as a difficulty modifier, and familiarity as a modifier. I don't see where it states whether or not both can apply at the same time. In other words, do these modifiers stack?

And then there are detail questions like:
1) when factoring weight/gear do you factor your own adventuring gear (clothes on your back, etc)? Which basically means unless you're nude, you're going to be over 20lb.
2) when factoring familiarity, it mentions a place that you can see (visible, line of sight). Does that mean the moon? The horizon? The ledge on top of that 20 story building?

And I posed the example situation that seems awfully powerful for a 1st level PC -
step 1) attack monster
step 2) teleport 100' away - within line of sight for 0 familiarity modifier, but out of running distance of monster.
step 3) lurk outside of movement range of monster til it turns its attention to other PCs.
step 4) teleport right behind the monster and backstab it (again, within line of sight and no modifier for familiarity).

rinse, repeat.

[Nonei]

I know what you mean... although I haven't tried it so the seeming complexity may simply be lack of familiarity with the rules too.

I am once again posting from work, so I don't have the teleport wording right in front of me (and I haven't actually played true20 yet). I believe that somewhere it says that all difficulty modifiers for powers stack unless expressly said otherwise.

And I'm not sure if it actually says this anywhere, but when I read it, I did interpret it as personal gear is included in the 20 lbs. Usually in 3.5e monster descriptions for monsters that can teleport,it says something like "only self plus x pounds of gear", and so when I read it I was thinking like that: no increased difficulty for self plus 20 pounds of gear.

And familiarity is I think pretty much the same as 3.5? I would say "visible, line of sight" refers to something you can see clearly.

[cra2]

that's true - i keep forgetting that, since this is based on d20, I could just refer back to my d20 books for what the "standard" should be.

though that really defeats, again, my ability to sell true20 to the players.
rather than simplifying things, now we have to have MORe books out, not less???

either way though... even in d20 teleport was a much higher level spell.

[ValhallaGH]

In other words, do these modifiers stack?

Yes.

And then there are detail questions like:
1) when factoring weight/gear do you factor your own adventuring gear (clothes on your back, etc)? Which basically means unless you're nude, you're going to be over 20lb.
2) when factoring familiarity, it mentions a place that you can see (visible, line of sight). Does that mean the moon? The horizon? The ledge on top of that 20 story building?

1) Up to how nice the Narrator wants to be. The default assumption is "no" but an individual Narrator can say "yes" if he only wants PCs carrying their clothes and a weapon.
2) It means a place that you can see accurately. Just because you can see a star doesn't mean that you can teleport there (and just because you can teleport there doesn't mean you can survive there).
Generally, creatures can accurately see anything within a hundred yards of themselves. Circumstances can modify this, but if you're unsure how to rule then give them a Difficulty 15 Notice check (modified by distance, lighting, and concealment) to see if the character can accurately see the target.

And I posed the example situation that seems awfully powerful for a 1st level PC -
step 1) attack monster
step 2) teleport 100' away - within line of sight for 0 familiarity modifier, but out of running distance of monster.
step 3) lurk outside of movement range of monster til it turns its attention to other PCs.
step 4) teleport right behind the monster and backstab it (again, within line of sight and no modifier for familiarity).

You left out step 2.5 and 4.5:
"Roll fatigue save. Fail, taking a level of fatigue. Repeat until unconscious (go, go coup de grace!)."

The other thing to keep in mind is that all PCs are about equally dangerous (and equally squishy). High level ones have a) more options to use across more situations, b) some resistance to low-level threats in the form of high defenses and save bonuses. But a 20th level PC can be killed by a peasant with a crossbow, if the peasant is lucky.

Good luck, and I hope that helped some.

[The Shadow]

I'm not sure what you're finding so vague about the Teleport rules. They seem clear enough to me?

Are you saying you need clear guidelines for what's in line of sight or the like? But surely a Narrator call is good enough? Decide how you want your world to work and use that. Why do you need a rule on the subject?

But I would say pretty clearly you don't have line of sight on the moon - or to be more precise, your exact landing point on the moon. I would say that if you're close enough to make out details of what you'll see when you teleport, you're in line of sight.

[cra2]

I'm not sure what you're finding so vague about the Teleport rules. They seem clear enough to me?

uhhh... did you read my post?
there AREN'T any rules.
that's what's vague about them. lol.

At my table - every one of 7 ppl had a different interpretation as soon as they read it.

"Are you saying you need clear guidelines for what's in line of sight or the like? But surely a Narrator call is good enough?"

a narrator call is good enough for anything, for that matter.
we could skip the dice and I could just inform the party whether they hit or not.

I didn't get a rulebook so that I could fill in the blanks myself.
If I wanted to do that I wouldn't need the rulebook.

"Decide how you want your world to work and use that."

well, rather than do that in a vacuum, I figured you nice experts would have some sage advice about what has worked/doesn't work. Or would know that it's already been semi-officially ruled on somewhere.

"Why do you need a rule on the subject?"

Because then my players and I will be playing the same game by the same rules.
We'll have a "contract" of expectations that we'll both .... whaddyamean why have a rule??!
lol.

"But I would say pretty clearly you don't have line of sight on the moon - or to be more precise, your exact landing point on the moon. I would say that if you're close enough to make out details of what you'll see when you teleport, you're in line of sight."

that's a start. though everyone's got a diff opinion about the distance at which folks make out "details."

player 1: I can clearly see the window ledge on that 7 story building. Can I jump to it?

player 2: I can clearly see the water tower a half-mile away. Can I jump to it?

player 3: I can't actually see the ground, obscured by tall grass and shrubs, 15' away. Can I jump to it?

etc, etc.

[The Shadow]

I don't know how to advise you on what will 'work', because I don't know anything about your campaign world. What 'works' in your campaign might not work in mine. Or it might work in one of mine but not in another.

I've never needed to come up with specific rules for this sort of thing. A player asks, "Is point B present familiarity for me?" and I make a judgment call. This isn't in the same sort of league as 'Do I hit?' It's an occasional thing that comes up now and then. Most of the time, I don't think there's any real doubt about the familiarity of a destination. Corner cases are uncommon.

Anyway, it's not like present familiarity is the line that makes teleportation possible or not; it's a question of whether you'll be rolling at +0 or +5. (If there's any question that it might be present familiarity, it almost certainly is not going to end up at +10 or +15.) Go with your gut, pick one, and let the dice fall where they may.

If you want a teleport power that works differently, there are other options to fit different flavors of campaign on these boards.

[The Shadow]

Think of it this way. Present familiarity means that the destination is in some sense 'present' to you. It's either line of sight or touch or (not very relevant for teleport) direct mental contact. Is the destination clearly visible enough to be roughly equivalent to touching it?

For example, to have present familiarity with a person by line-of-sight, I'd argue (in most campaigns) you'd need to be close enough to make out their face, at least. How close is that? Who needs a rule? Imagine the situation and decide. if it's foggy, take that into account. And so on.

If you absolutely insist on a rule, how's this: 30 feet is the distance within which a gaze attack is effective, so it seems like a good range for present familiarity. For really big and obvious destinations - a distinctive tower visible across a plain, perhaps - you might lengthen that, perhaps by quite a bit. Look at the guidelines for Notice checks, perhaps.

There is nothing at all official, semi- or otherwise, about that ruling. True20 is not the sort of game where 'official' rulings tend to get made. If you like it, use it.

Personally, I never game with a battle map, so such a rule would not do much for me. Every time I need to know if someone or something is within 30 feet, I make a judgment call anyway, so what's one more?

EDIT: Another guideline. The +5 level of familiarity includes 'a place the adept spent at least a year's time'. Could you describe your destination in more detail than you could (from memory) a place you've spent at least a year's time? Then it's present familiarity.

[The Shadow]

player 1: I can clearly see the window ledge on that 7 story building. Can I jump to it?

player 2: I can clearly see the water tower a half-mile away. Can I jump to it?

player 3: I can't actually see the ground, obscured by tall grass and shrubs, 15' away. Can I jump to it?

etc, etc.

Finally, for what it's worth, in most campaigns I would probably allow the first two (the second might depend on the viewing angle - are you clearly seeing the bottom of the ledge from the street, or the place you're going to be standing on from the building across the street?), while the third would depend. If you want to appear amidst the grass and shrubs, obscured from sight, that definitely would not be present familiarity, it'd probably be Unfamiliar. I mean, you have no idea what those shrubs are hiding. If you want to appear just above the shrubs and then fall the rest of the way, sure, why not?

But that's just me. Others may feel differently. I myself might feel differently in a campaign where I wanted teleportation to be unreliable and difficult (though for that I'd probably alter the power). But in a campaign where I wanted teleportation to be routine and common, I'd be very generous in my rulings.