Stealing rules from M&M

[~HANZO~]

Playing/GMing both True20 and M&M can lead to a lot of cross polenization. Some one a while ago was talking about converting Rifts. One major issue was Maga-damage or not to maga-damage. While the general consensus was not to, but to scale damage to appropriate levels.
Last night I was thinking about Impervious Armor/protection in M&M. Basically if the damage bonus lower that the armor bonus the damage is shrugged off easily. So for example if you have a Plasteel power armor suit with protection +6, and your opponents damage bonus is +5 or less is shrugged off and ignored. This could be narrowed down to, say imperious against kinetic damage (bullets) only. Making energy weapons on par with the armors level. while any attack bonus of 6+ is rolled against on toughness as usual.

I think this is also an awesome way to stat up vehicles. You could even make some armor impervious and some not. for instance an armor car could be armor bonus of 7, 4 of it impervious. meaning its got some resistance to heavy fire while being immune to most small arms fire. any damage bonus of a 3 or less is ignored by the armor. Any damage bonus of a 4 or over gets a +7 to toughness save.

[ValhallaGH]

M&M Impervious (at least for 2nd edition) allows you to ignore any damage less than your Impervious. Damage bonuses equal to or greater than your Impervious are saved against normally. So if you have Impervious 6 then you can ignore any damage of 5 or less (such as assault rifles, shotguns, blaster pistols, flamethrowers, etc.) but have to roll when struck by damage bonuses of 6 or more.

Impervious is an excellent mechanic for representing something that is incredibly tough. Even with a 13 (or greater) penalty to Toughness, the impervious thing/creature still gets to ignore damage bonuses less than its impervious.
This would be a good mechanic for super-armors that provide ridiculous amounts of protection to their wearers, making the wearer not only tough but utterly immune to most weapon attacks. It makes tanks and other heavily armored vehicles able to scoff at, or completely ignore, most hand-held weapons. Extremely powerful.

[~HANZO~]

Yeah, well my bad about the exact number bit. Still fairly new to M&M.

original message edited.

[cthughua]

I have a set of Mecha and Starship grade weapons rules. They work like items made of unique materials as presented in the companion, with the addition of providing a damage bonus when used against targets that are of a lesser grade.

For example, a Mecha-class weapon deals +10 damage to Normal-class targets, base damage to Mecha-class targets, and -10 damage to Starship-class targets. Basically it's a -10 penalty to damage for each step worse and +10 for each step better. At the extremes would be using a Starship-class weapon against a Normal-class target for +20 damage or a Normal-class weapon firing at a Starship-class target for -20 damage.. Of course I penalize Starship-class weapons HUGELY for firing at small targets.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

What I could really use is an easy conversion of M&M powers to True20. The thing is I look at the powers in the True20 book and find them odd. I'd just like to scrap them all and start over.

[~HANZO~]

What I could really use is an easy conversion of M&M powers to True20. The thing is I look at the powers in the True20 book and find them odd. I'd just like to scrap them all and start over.

Doing a power by power conversion would be a real pain when I think there is a simpler solution.
Just use M&M powers. Powers are really the biggest difference between the two games. You remove powers and all that is different is point buy VS level advancement. If you have the masterminds manual you could use the advancement method in there to hand out power points. Or just set a power level to your game. For example power level = Adept level, Or adept level+3 for a higher level game. Or what ever works for your game. I really do think it could be that easy.

Just remember the M&M powers unmodified are way more powerful because in True20 Powers require a fatigue check to use. Making magic a gamble. Which is totally up to you to how powerful you want powers in your game.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Doing a power by power conversion would be a real pain when I think there is a simpler solution.
Just use M&M powers. Powers are really the biggest difference between the two games. You remove powers and all that is different is point buy VS level advancement. If you have the masterminds manual you could use the advancement method in there to hand out power points. Or just set a power level to your game. For example power level = Adept level, Or adept level+3 for a higher level game. Or what ever works for your game. I really do think it could be that easy.

Just remember the M&M powers unmodified are way more powerful because in True20 Powers require a fatigue check to use. Making magic a gamble. Which is totally up to you to how powerful you want powers in your game.

That sounds like more of a pain than having a conversion: you'd have to adjust the Mastermind's Manual advancement to take into account quicker feat acquisition, the reduced rate some roles get their combat bonuses, and skill point advancement. Plus that doesn't take into account balancing power advancement and width of power selection. And are you sure the rules assumptions of True20 and M&M mesh?

And what if I do want to use the fatigue save? I can't figure out how to balance that using M&M rules.

I'm just looking for a way to stat out what True20 powers do so I can design my own, I still want them to remain True20.

[~HANZO~]

Doing a power by power conversion would be a real pain when I think there is a simpler solution.
Just use M&M powers. Powers are really the biggest difference between the two games. You remove powers and all that is different is point buy VS level advancement. If you have the masterminds manual you could use the advancement method in there to hand out power points. Or just set a power level to your game. For example power level = Adept level, Or adept level+3 for a higher level game. Or what ever works for your game. I really do think it could be that easy.

Just remember the M&M powers unmodified are way more powerful because in True20 Powers require a fatigue check to use. Making magic a gamble. Which is totally up to you to how powerful you want powers in your game.

That sounds like more of a pain than having a conversion: you'd have to adjust the Mastermind's Manual advancement to take into account quicker feat acquisition, the reduced rate some roles get their combat bonuses, and skill point advancement. Plus that doesn't take into account balancing power advancement and width of power selection. And are you sure the rules assumptions of True20 and M&M mesh?

And what if I do want to use the fatigue save? I can't figure out how to balance that using M&M rules.

I'm just looking for a way to stat out what True20 powers do so I can design my own, I still want them to remain True20.

Not sure what you are asking for. Are you asking how they work as in how you roll checks? or how they work as in effect? True20 powers are feats but work like spells in 3e. So adept take powers by buying new feats. A check is made by rolling your power level (which is your adept level+3) + key ability. say wis for priest or Int for mages (or what ever key ability is right for setting and power source)against a difficulty. So a 6th level Mages (adept) with an int of +3, would roll an add +12(6+3+3). A save against the power is 10+1/2 adept level + key ability. So for the power above save would be 10+3+3: 16. The fatigue save for the power would be 10+1/2 adept level. <adept level does not add to fatigue save difficulty, Our house rule is it is added to the fatigue save roll though> Most damaging spells do damage equal to adept level. So I would say that is like saying adept level = M&M power level.
Not every power is an easy formulation though. others require a check, higher the check the better the result. (hope this is what you were asking when you asked how they work)

Using power points to Buy powers in true20 would be a mistake though now that i really think about it. Unless you could find a way to inflate points every level to keep up. For example a say a True20 adept takes one power at first level. then one at third. one at 7th. now at 7th level all 3 spells act as 7th level checks and saves. now imagine now if he had twice that amount. Each level you would have to give an amount of points x level enough to keep all spells at max (PL so to speak).

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Not sure what you are asking for. Are you asking how they work as in how you roll checks? or how they work as in effect? True20 powers are feats but work like spells in 3e. So adept take powers by buying new feats. A check is made by rolling your power level (which is your adept level+3) + key ability. say wis for priest or Int for mages (or what ever key ability is right for setting and power source)against a difficulty. So a 6th level Mages (adept) with an int of +3, would roll an add +12(6+3+3). A save against the power is 10+1/2 adept level + key ability. So for the power above save would be 10+3+3: 16. The fatigue save for the power would be 10+1/2 adept level. <adept level does not add to fatigue save difficulty, Our house rule is it is added to the fatigue save roll though> Most damaging spells do damage equal to adept level. So I would say that is like saying adept level = M&M power level.
Not every power is an easy formulation though. others require a check, higher the check the better the result. (hope this is what you were asking when you asked how they work)

Actually I know how they work. What I want to know is if you used M&M Flaw pricing what cost would "fatigue save, cost adjusted based on how many ranks were used" have.

Using power points to Buy powers in true20 would be a mistake though now that i really think about it. Unless you could find a way to inflate points every level to keep up. For example a say a True20 adept takes one power at first level. then one at third. one at 7th. now at 7th level all 3 spells act as 7th level checks and saves. now imagine now if he had twice that amount. Each level you would have to give an amount of points x level enough to keep all spells at max (PL so to speak).

I thought the point was the design the power at its base level and then leave scaling to the True20 system.

[~HANZO~]

Actually I know how they work. What I want to know is if you used M&M Flaw pricing what cost would "fatigue save, cost adjusted based on how many ranks were used" have.

Then Im still not sure by "how do they work" what you mean. Think you are going to have to go outside point buy and just use other true20 powers as an example. Just assume all the powers are fatiguing. There just not cut and dry of a formula in true20 to just write some conversion chart. For example elemental blast does damage = to adept level. So blast would do the same. There one power down. true20 powers just don't work like powers. think D&D spells. Some the effects are totally up to RP there might be a save option or something but over all how do you convert that? like plant shaping. how do you apply points to plant healing? plant growth? or wood crafting? How do you assign that one a point per rank? Or ghost touch? which allows you to effect incorporeal beings. In M&M these would be 1 point Power feats. while other powers scale. Its going to take a power by power write up. Its just not that easy to say X in true20 is = to Y power points in M&M.

Why not post a few powers you want done. Let a few of the wildly talented True20'ers on this forum help you flesh them out. Or help you find which power in true20 does what you are looking for or could be used as a template to build the power you want.

I think your looking for a cut and dry conversion chart. true20 powers are so varied I personally cant help with that, Since I don't think its just that easy to do.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Then Im still not sure by "how do they work" what you mean. Think you are going to have to go outside point buy and just use other true20 powers as an example. Just assume all the powers are fatiguing. There just not cut and dry of a formula in true20 to just write some conversion chart. For example elemental blast does damage = to adept level. So blast would do the same. There one power down. true20 powers just don't work like powers. think D&D spells. Some the effects are totally up to RP there might be a save option or something but over all how do you convert that? like plant shaping. how do you apply points to plant healing? plant growth? or wood crafting? How do you assign that one a point per rank? Or ghost touch? which allows you to effect incorporeal beings. In M&M these would be 1 point Power feats. while other powers scale. Its going to take a power by power write up. Its just not that easy to say X in true20 is = to Y power points in M&M.
………
I think your looking for a cut and dry conversion chart. true20 powers are so varied I personally cant help with that, Since I don't think its just that easy to do.

I'm not trying to cost True20 powers the M&M way. I just want to figure out how to take a balanced power from M&M and slap on a "True20" template that adds fatigue and whatever else I need.

Let's not talk about it any more. Obviously it'd just be easier for me to use M&M if I really feel this strongly about powers. True20 I'll save for when they're not that important.

Why not post a few powers you want done. Let a few of the wildly talented True20'ers on this forum help you flesh them out. Or help you find which power in true20 does what you are looking for or could be used as a template to build the power you want.

EDIT: What I'm looking for are powers that are very crude in effect, with only a few that have finer detail. True20's problem is that most powers don't feel like a club, they feel like an array of swords. If I'm going to use True20 I need only powers that have blunt uses, plus a few for tricking and manipulating people. (I realize I'm being less than clear, but it's not an easy concept to get across I think.)

[ValhallaGH]

I'm not trying to cost True20 powers the M&M way. I just want to figure out how to take a balanced power from M&M and slap on a "True20" template that adds fatigue and whatever else I need.

Drawback (Disability): Fatigue Save DC 10 + 1/2 power rank; Fort save or gain one level of fatigue. Common, Moderate, -3 points. Minimum cost 1 power point (as normal).

A flaw is inappropriate, since the most analogous (Tiring) is guaranteed rather than potential. Since Tiring is a -1 flaw, no lesser state would be a cost affecting flaw. Thus, Drawbacks are the next area to look at.
Sorry about not speaking up earlier, just had the time to chime in here. I hope that does what you needed.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Drawback (Disability): Fatigue Save DC 10 + 1/2 power rank; Fort save or gain one level of fatigue. Common, Moderate, -3 points. Minimum cost 1 power point (as normal).

A flaw is inappropriate, since the most analogous (Tiring) is guaranteed rather than potential. Since Tiring is a -1 flaw, no lesser state would be a cost affecting flaw. Thus, Drawbacks are the next area to look at.
Sorry about not speaking up earlier, just had the time to chime in here. I hope that does what you needed.

Thanks for the effort, but I think I agree with HANZO and M&M powers just won't convert over. The systems are too different.

[~HANZO~]

Drawback (Disability): Fatigue Save DC 10 + 1/2 power rank; Fort save or gain one level of fatigue. Common, Moderate, -3 points. Minimum cost 1 power point (as normal).

A flaw is inappropriate, since the most analogous (Tiring) is guaranteed rather than potential. Since Tiring is a -1 flaw, no lesser state would be a cost affecting flaw. Thus, Drawbacks are the next area to look at.
Sorry about not speaking up earlier, just had the time to chime in here. I hope that does what you needed.

Thanks for the effort, but I think I agree with HANZO and M&M powers just won't convert over. The systems are too different.

I didn't say they will not convert. I just said it was not as easy as making a conversion chart. I could easily do them one by one. Like the example I gave of blast. Cut and dry in true20 It would do +1 dmg per level of the adept. range adapt levelx10 feet, max range adept levelx100. Just like elemental blast in true20. Each power would need broken down and looked at. Its not that is cant be done. Its just cant be done with the a conversion chart or method some one could just whip out and post here. Some powers will end up being simply feats (which powers are in true20) while others scale with level. And a few that are more powerful with a higher power roll. Since level adds to that roll it scales that way.

Why I said you should post some powers you want done. Let us take a crack at them. Or look at the quick start for a few examples of how powers are written in true20 http://true20.com/support/2006/04/true2 ... -rules.php

[ValhallaGH]

Thanks for the effort, but I think I agree with HANZO and M&M powers just won't convert over. The systems are too different.

The systems are actually pretty compatible. In fact, every True 20 power can be recreated with the M&M 2e rules, in a very straightforward manner.
The real problem is that M&M powers are extremely generic, designed to be tweaked with Extras, Flaws, Drawbacks and Power Feats until they do exactly what you wanted. True 20 powers are meant to be the powers the universe will let you get away with, and if you don't like those limitations then you can to do impolite things to yourself, because the universe doesn't care.
Different design and play philosophies result in very different feeling systems. However, the underlying mechanics are the same (and break the game in the same places).

If you really want to scrap the True 20 power system, then you can. Just replace it with M&M powers, each requiring the character to spend a feat, as normal, to use it at a rank equal to his Adept level. Total modifiers (extras and flaws, power feats and drawbacks) must equal +0. All powers subject to GM approval.
There will be a lot of corner cases, where you'll have to keep an eye on how it plays out in game, but it should work if you really want to use M&M powers in True 20. Be aware that Adepts will be come gods, unstoppable by anything other than a properly powered Adept.