I'm a little bit sad about the True20 products -___-

[~HANZO~]

Some of this is matter of taste though. I use role creation constantly. And love the variety of feats and options. So if they didn't exist there would be people like me complaining here that the system is not custom enough and not enough options.

I mean if you feel the game is perfect with just the main book. Then just use the main book. Isn't more options better then less when you make a mass market game that has to appeal to a large variety of tastes. Every one can pick and choose for there own game.

[Stephen]

We've ended up with a few essential rulebooks that I feel dont' share the spirit of the original. Even if they are good works on their own.

I probably agree with this (but not with the use of 'essential'). It pretty much describes my feeling when I had finished reading the True20 Companion.

Some of this is matter of taste though.
...
I mean if you feel the game is perfect with just the main book. Then just use the main book.

I absolutely agree with this.

Funny thing. I tend to run low-magic campaigns with an emphasis on heroes using their skills to solve problems. Yet I do plan to buy the Adepts Handbook (because I need more options to get the feel I want in my games), but won't be going anywhere near the Experts Handbook (because I like the skills system as simple as it is in the main book and don't want it over-cluttered with too many options). Like HANZO says, it's a matter of taste.

If Green Ronin can keep the line going by expanding with optional supplements then it can only be a good thing. Relatively cheap .pdfs mean I can sample what is on offer and decide which I really want to purchase in print form. As long as the supplements remain optional and not a 'to use this sourcebook you must also own blah, blah and blah' trap*, then it's all good!

Stephen
(* Will Difficulty 15 on entering store or lose 2 Wealth points).

[~HANZO~]

Stephen
(* Will Difficulty 15 on entering store or lose 2 Wealth points).

LMAO!!

[jaldaen]

Nevermore is just awesome and I hope The guys over at Expeditious Retreat Press continue to put out material for it.

Thanks for the compliment... Nevermore has been a very fun and unique setting to create and hopefully it continues to grow in the coming years... I'm currently writing a young adult novel for it and having a blast (even if sometimes the nightmares interfere with my plans to expose them to the world).

[jaldaen]

I do agree that settings like Nevermore are good (and perhaps Reign of Discordia will be too), but it's just that with the d20 movement, many people pushed settings that were very alike.

I'm glad you have enjoyed the Nevermore setting! One of the reasons for creating it was to do something different and as "un-alike" as possible while allowing it to be used with almost any other setting. Hopefully I pulled it off, but only time will tell. If you ever run a Nevermore game let me know how it goes as I'd love to have the feedback

[Brutorz Bill]

[quote="MdavidJ"][quote="Y.O.Morales"]


As for the "Post-catastrophe setting" *wink.* Dunno what to tell ya there. I was lucky enough to be picked and I'll continue to support it.
quote]

???? I just saw this, could you give me some more info PLEASE!!?
I'm a PA fan from waay back!

[MdavidJ]

Actually, that's a reference to The Blood Throen Campaign setting.

It's very much a Post Apocalyptic Fantasy setting.

That said, if you dig P.A, there will be some of those elements in Interface Zero.

We basically wreck the State of California ( 5 minute long 9.3 earthquake) and it devolves into this vast wasteland.

Very cool stuff.

[Lord Lance]

Please, don't go offtopic in this topic. Here we are discussing about the overall quality and consistency of the products, and (i think) the necessity of a more present overseeing from the "official true20" crew.

If you wanna advertise/support your upcoming products in this topic, please tell us that the "Steve crew" will supervise/oversee your book, before the selling.

I think that maybe we need a sort of "Approved product" label on these products. It would be nice / useful.

[curseofyig]

I dont' see Mutants and Masterminds suffering from this issue. The books that add powers and rules(Ultimate Power, Masterminds Manual, Book of Magic) are either designed wholey or in part by the man himself

I think True20 suffers from the lack of that. Instead of the initial vision of the first book, we sort of get different peoples takes and visions of True20 with each book. It makes it all messy. Campaign setting books and so forth it doesn't matter, writers should add all sorts of their own style and flavor into it, but I'd like consistency in the rulebooks.

The Bestiary is essential far as Im concerned and the Adepts handbook is a very good book. Tho i'd like to see other - non feat - options for supernatural powers in True20, yucky feat bloat. Instead of making a new feat for every new magic spell idea, why not a system for freeform spell weaving on the fly?

I just didn't dig on the flow of the Experts handbook or the Companion without naming specifics of what I didnt' like here, ill just say most of it.

Surprisingly one of the best books I've seen for True20 when it comes to new interesting feats or supernatural powers is the Phydea Campaign setting by Tim Harris. A freebee too and huge.

[MdavidJ]

Please, don't go offtopic in this topic. Here we are discussing about the overall quality and consistency of the products, and (i think) the necessity of a more present overseeing from the "official true20" crew.

If you wanna advertise/support your upcoming products in this topic, please tell us that the "Steve crew" will supervise/oversee your book, before the selling.

I think that maybe we need a sort of "Approved product" label on these products. It would be nice / useful.

Lance, he asked a question, and I answered it. Sorry if I offended you.

[Greg K]

I have to agree with Lord Lance also. I'm disappointed to see that only the core book is penned by Steve Kenson and I believe it shows in the work. We've ended up with a few essential rulebooks that I feel dont' share the spirit of the original. Even if they are good works on their own..

I'm also disappointed that Steve Kenson has not penned more of GR's True20 stuff. I would have preferred that he did the Adept and Expert books (nothing against the authors of those products).

.

b) Vast majority of character concepts can be built simply by mixing the three Roles. The addition of "Build a role" and the proliferation of new roles built with this template in the books seems to me to be stealing the thunder of the ingenious "3 roles to rule them all" idea.

I actually like the build a role. As much as I like the 3 generic roles, I thought there needed to be some hybrid roles. I felt this way with the generic classes of UA as well. Then again, I don't like relying on multiclassing to build my concept. Granted, I shouldn't be as good a fighter as a Warrior or as good at spellcasting or psychic powers as an adept. However, if my character's initial training is in magic and combat, I want a role that reflects this ratjer than having to jump back and forth between roles

[Witchblade]

Instead of making a new feat for every new magic spell idea, why not a system for freeform spell weaving on the fly?

Give me some time on this one. Back in the day, I ran a Villains & Vigilantes character who did exactly this. In choosing the elements of his spell (duration, damage, casting time, range, area of effect, and the nature of the spell), he arrived at the total PP (power point) cost to cast it, but also defined the effects. For example:

If he wanted to cast a spell that took effect instantly, did 4d6 damage at a distance of 25 feet, required one action to cast, and affected an area the size of a large room (an explosive fiery sphere, for example), the cost would be 48 pp.

For a simple spell to bind a single victim at a range of 10 feet, the cost would be only 26 pp (if it could be cast with a single action).

If you have any knowledge of the V&V system (or if you're just curious), you can view the original character here.

Anyway, give me some time to work on it and I might be able to come up with a similar arrangement for True20.

[ValhallaGH]

I dont' see Mutants and Masterminds suffering from this issue. The books that add powers and rules(Ultimate Power, Masterminds Manual, Book of Magic) are either designed wholey or in part by the man himself

Quibble: Those books didn't add any new powers, excepting power structures. All they provided were examples of how to build specific power concepts, via the existing powers. Also a few more options for extras, flaws, and power feats.

[Kendermage]

My biggest quibble is in the other books not being more unified. The Adpt Handbook handled this the best so far as it adopted some elements from the other books rather than recreating those elements from the ground up. He used powers already developed in the Bestiary and Blood Throne instead of making his own version. Unlike the disparity in skills and feats which there are at least three different ways (in three different books) to handle Demolitions, Navigation, and other same such.

I think that if something has already been created in one sourcebook then for Pete's sake don't recreate it. Get the author's permission and use that one. If I had the time I'd go through all the books and provide concrete examples; however the needs of family life and job don't leave much time for such activities.

[77IM]

The reason the M&M product line is so consistent is because the core book is so complete -- it contains nearly every rule you need to play the game. Supplements therefore have almost no rules in them (prominent exceptions are generally subsystems, like the the mass combat units and the paradigm shifts, and of course the Big Two crunch books [Ultimate Power and Mastermind's Manual] which are very much optional).

I think True20 has a different strategy. Instead of cramming everything into the core book, the core book is just the basics and the genre/setting supplements are expected to have additional rules to fill in the gaps. I can see why they did this -- it allows supplement authors a lot of freedom to experiment or tweak out the system to really suit the needs of the genre/setting.

Personally, I would have preferred the core book to be a bit more complete so that we don't wind up with every supplement duplicating certain powers and feats (it seems like every setting has its own version of "summon monster," for example). That way setting books could focus on rules that are truly unique to that setting and skip all the generic stuff (like "heavy lifter" feat). I think including the companion in the core book is a step in the right direction, and I hold out great hope for True20 Second Edition (due out in 2010*).

-- 77IM

* I just made that number up in the hopes of spreading rumors and sparking flame wars.