Pathfinder's CMB for True20?

[barsoomcore]

The newly released Pathfinder RPG from Paizo has an interesting idea:

The CMB (Combat Maneuver Bonus)

You use the CMB for Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder and Trip attacks. The CMB is:

Base attack bonus + Strength + special size modifier (-8 for Tiny up to +8 for Colossal -- you can probably work out the rest)

The DC for all these maneuvers is 15 + the target's CMB.

There are varying affects depending on by how much you exceed the DC. Particularly with Grapple, where the effect increases in +5 increments... exactly like the Damage track. What about a Grapple track?

Thoughts?

[jonrog1]

Interestingly, the Chase Rules I've been working on that you saw (I know, I know, I'm way behind on the final tweak), I just added a similar system. Are we here at the glorious birth of the new "Track" school of RPG's for the new century? Is it zeitgeist?

[barsoomcore]

I'm zeitgeisting right now, if you know what I mean.

[bryan.mullins]

...Is it zeitgeist?

Yes. Check two boxes on your zeitgeist track.

[77IM]

I created a similar system a while back. It is similar in the sense of having a unified modifier and mechanic for all the combat moves, although it is a little bit check-heavy; in particular, the Compound Brawls would be easier if it were a "for every 5 points by which you succeed..."-type system.

Here it is, about half way down the thread:
http://www.true20.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1145

-- 77IM

[barsoomcore]

My problem with the Pathfinder system is that it applies the character's Strength bonus across the board. For Grapple and Bull Rush that makes sense, but I'd like to be able to use Dexterity for Trip and Disarm, at least. Would it make sense to allow characters to use their Combat Bonus rather than their Maneuver Bonus for those maneuvers?

Is that too complicated, maybe?

[iwatt]

My problem with the Pathfinder system is that it applies the character's Strength bonus across the board. For Grapple and Bull Rush that makes sense, but I'd like to be able to use Dexterity for Trip and Disarm, at least. Would it make sense to allow characters to use their Combat Bonus rather than their Maneuver Bonus for those maneuvers?

Is that too complicated, maybe?

The precedent is there regarding Dodge/Parry.

[77IM]

My problem with the Pathfinder system is that it applies the character's Strength bonus across the board. For Grapple and Bull Rush that makes sense, but I'd like to be able to use Dexterity for Trip and Disarm, at least. Would it make sense to allow characters to use their Combat Bonus rather than their Maneuver Bonus for those maneuvers?

Is that too complicated, maybe?

Maybe a feat could enable it? Your average "fast weakling" is at a disadvantage trying to knock over Big Strong Guy, but someone with Grappling Finesse has no problem because he can use his Dex to his advantage.

-- 77IM

[Nellisir]

My problem with the Pathfinder system is that it applies the character's Strength bonus across the board. For Grapple and Bull Rush that makes sense, but I'd like to be able to use Dexterity for Trip and Disarm, at least. Would it make sense to allow characters to use their Combat Bonus rather than their Maneuver Bonus for those maneuvers?

Is that too complicated, maybe?

Maybe a feat could enable it? Your average "fast weakling" is at a disadvantage trying to knock over Big Strong Guy, but someone with Grappling Finesse has no problem because he can use his Dex to his advantage.
-- 77IM

I'd make the feat broader: ie, Finesse Maneuver allows you to add your Dexterity instead of your Strength to your Maneuver bonus.

[barsoomcore]

Lots of good ideas here, thanks folks.

My current plan: stick with "Maneuver Bonus" as Strength-based. In the manuever definitions we'll say that for Trip and Disarm you can use your attack bonus with the attack you're tripping or disarming with, OR you can use your Maneuver Bonus.

DC is always equal to 15 + MB.

"Maneuver Finesse" allows you to use Dex in place of Strength for your Maneuver Bonus.

Is Maneuver Finesse too strong now, you think? It seems like every Dex-based combat character needs that puppy.

[77IM]

Is Maneuver Finesse too strong now, you think? It seems like every Dex-based combat character needs that puppy.

Nah, only guys who are going to be knocking their foes around a bunch in close combat. Ranged fighters and hit-and-run fighters won't need it, nor anyone who has Dex-based combat as a secondary concept (e.g. skill-focussed, high-Dex Experts).

-- 77IM

[barsoomcore]

Okay, here's my True20-ization of the Pathfinder Combat Maneuver rules. They're very simple and I think very much in the spirit of True20. Comment!

Combat Maneuvers

During combat, you can attempt to perform a number of maneuvers that can hinder or even cripple your foe, including bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, sunder, and trip. Although these maneuvers have vastly different results, they all use a similar mechanic to determine the degree of success.

Combat Maneuver Bonus: Each character and creature has a combat maneuver bonus (or CMB) that represents its skill at performing and resisting combat maneuvers. A creature’s CMB is determined using the following formula:

CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

The special size modifier for a creature’s combat maneuver bonus is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMB when performing specific maneuvers.

Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While most combat maneuvers can be performed as part of a standard action (in place of a melee attack), others require specific actions. When you perform a combat maneuver, make combat maneuver roll adding your CMB to the result plus any bonuses you might have due to specific feats or abilities. The DC to successfully perform the maneuver is determined using the following formula:

DC = 15 + the target’s CMB

Determine Success: If your result exceeds the DC of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect. Some maneuvers, such as bull rush and grapple, have varying levels of success depending on how much your result exceeds the DC.

Bull Rush
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge. A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm.
If your manuever is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your Combat Maneuver result exceeds the DC you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attempt fails, your movement ends in front of the target.

Disarm
You can attempt to disarm your opponent as a standard action. You may use either your Combat Maneuver bonus or your attack bonus with the weapon you are using to make a disarm attempt. Attempting to disarm a foe while unarmed (possessing the Improved Strike feats counts as armed) imposes a -4 penalty on the roll.
If your attempt is successful, your target drops one item it is carrying of your choice. If your result exceeds the DC of the target by 10 or more, the target drops the items it is carrying in both hands (maximum two items if the target has more than two hands). If your result fails by 10 or more, you drop the weapon that you were using to attempt the disarm. If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped.

Grapple
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering their combat options. Attempting to grapple a foe without two free hands imposes a –4 penalty on the roll.
If you successfully grapple an opponent, both you and your opponent gain the grappled condition. You must continue to make a check, as a standard action, each round to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target next round.
Once you are successfully grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions.
Move: You can move both you and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target anywhere beside you.
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed damage. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition. Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition.
If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver roll or Escape Artist check (DC 10 + opponent’s CMB). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally.
Throw: You can pick up and throw your opponent like an inanimate object. The throw occurs as a move action as part of the grapple (making grabbing, grappling and throwing an opponent a full-round action). The distance you can throw an opponent is based on weight like any other object, and a throw automatically ends the grapple.
If you have your target pinned or otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie them up. This works like a pin effect, using your CMB + 5 to determine the DC to escape the bonds. The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie them up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty.

Overrun
As a standard action taken during your move, or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is one size category larger than you or smaller.
When you attempt to overrun a target, it can choose to avoid you, allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack. If your target does not avoid you, make a combat maneuver roll as normal. If your attempt is successful, you move through the target’s space. If your attempt exceeds the DC by 5 or more, you move through the target’s space and the target is knocked prone. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver roll for each additional leg it has.

Sunder
You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of a standard action. You must be wielding a weapon or possess the Improved Strike feat to attempt a sunder.
If your attempt is successful, you deal damage to the item normally.

Trip
You can attempt to trip an opponent as a standard action. You may use either your Combat Maneuver bonus or your attack bonus with the weapon you are using (if any) to make a trip attempt. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you or smaller.
If your attempt is successful, the target is knocked prone.
If your attempt fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures, such as oozes without legs and flying creatures, cannot be tripped.


Conditions

Grappled
A grappled creature is being restrained by another creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move or use their Dodge or Parry bonuses to Defense. A grappled creature also takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver rolls, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character that attempts to use a supernatural power must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + the power's rank) or the power fails to manifest.

Pinned
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is flat-footed. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Defense. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned creature that attempts to use a supernatural power must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + the power's rank) or the power fails to manifest. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled.

[iwatt]

Very Nice...

What happened to Throw?

Also, I'm thinking about using this for Feinting (skill check v/s 15+Skill)

Die, opposed check, die!

[Lord Lance]

And what is the...

(DC 15 + the spell’s level)



Also there are errors about grappled and pinned condition: you made bad penalties:
> -4 DEX?? So the grappled can parry without problem any attack??
> Armor class??

Finally, this system doesn't resolve the problems with big creature grappling smaller... When they grapple, the fight's ended! Ko for the smaller one...
Maybe you can reslove imposing a creature cannot grapple an enemy smaller than 2 size classes.

Look the baduin system for other inspirations.

[ValhallaGH]

Finally, this system doesn't resolve the problems with big creature grappling smaller...

But it does mitigate it a lot by making size bonuses smaller.
+1 for large instead of +4
+2 for huge instead of +8
+4 for gargantuan instead of +12
+8 for colossal instead of +16

So while being grappled by a tyrannosaurus rex still sucks, it's probably not quite as bad.
(T-Rex CMB is 13 + 9 + 2 = +24, so it's Difficulty 39 to escape, instead of the Grapple bonus of +30 which averages Difficulty 40 / 41 to escape and may peak at Difficulty 50.)

Which is good, it means that rolling that natural 20 on your escape check just might be enough to get away, instead of being canceled out by the T-Rex's natural 20.