No restriction on undead power use?

[barsoomcore]

Undead PC's, regardless of role (or class), are always a pain to handle anyway.

Remind some time to tell you about the day my PCs decided turning one of their number into a super-vampire was a good idea.

Yeah, that ended well.

That is one of the inherent drawbacks of the D20 SRD. Non-living races aren't handled very well as they are in other systems.

Okay, I'm curious. Which systems, how handled?

[iwatt]

Me, I wanted a lich to be more than a wizard with a larger hit die, immunity to critical hits, and really, really ugly facial features. True20 did that automatically, so I consider it a feature.

True20 also changed Concentration from Con to Wis, further adding to the fact that Lich's are the most powerful casters.

As you can see, I'm firmly in the camp of it's a feature, not a bug. Liches were scarier way back when. Let's bring that feeling back.

By the way, undead should always be using extra effort as well. Except zombies and skeletons, who are to stupid to do things right. But forgot about outrunning a ghoul

[timemrick]

That is one of the inherent drawbacks of the D20 SRD. Non-living races aren't handled very well as they are in other systems.

Okay, I'm curious. Which systems, how handled?

I think I'll mention a few systems to get this part of the discussion started:

GURPS: Uses numerous advantages and disadvantages to define the effects of being undead in game terms. Some examples: Unliving (doesn't heal naturally, among other things), Injury Tolerance (No Blood), Doesn't Breathe, etc. Templates for weak undead, such as skeletons and zombies, are a net disadvantage, while vampires, liches, and ghosts get expensive quickly. The list of traits can be a bit long and unwieldy--but their effects are well-defined, and balanced in cost with other abilities.

BESM: Like GURPS, also a point-buy system, but less obsessed with defining and pricing every little feature. Undead still tend to cost a lot of points, because they are resistant or immune to many attack forms (aging, poison, suffocation, cold, etc.).

Buffy/Angel (Cinematic Unisystem): Also largely a point-based system, but more stream-lined (and less comprehensive) than either GURPS or BESM. There's a basic vampire template in the core rulebooks, which defines their classic strengths and weaknesses; the Angel book also has a system for creating demon characters; and rules for robot and zombie characters appear in various books. These "package Qualities" consist of attribute modifiers, resistances and/or vulnerabilities, and other special abilities (such as regeneration or hypnosis, or a robot requiring repair rather than healing).

These are the systems other than d20 (and its derivatives) with which I'm most familiar. Notably, they're all point-based, which provides built-in balance for undead/unliving characters. True20 and d20 have a very different design philosophy, which has its own way of balancing PCs against each other, and heroes vs. adversaries, but is less concerned with making those adversaries playable as potential PCs (or even PC-like NPCs).

[Razuur]

My only problem with that, from both a balance and thematic rationale, (and why Undead won't be immune to the effects), is that why should Undead be effectively more powerful adepts than Dragons, or Outsiders, or Fey. IMO, it makes more sense for those creature types to be more powerful magically than Undead. Wizards become liches as an easy way to extend their lives and make themselves effectively immortal, not because it should suddenly make spellcasting easier.

I would think that is where the setting steps in. The Narrator can make any limits for their setting thematically and mechanically, right? Tone thier power down by placing a restriction. Don't want 1st level mages teleporting? Fine, disallow. The toolkit approach of True20 allows you to do this.

YMMV

Patrick

[barsoomcore]

The list of traits can be a bit long and unwieldy--but their effects are well-defined, and balanced in cost with other abilities.

These "package Qualities" consist of attribute modifiers, resistances and/or vulnerabilities, and other special abilities (such as regeneration or hypnosis, or a robot requiring repair rather than healing).

Built-in balance for undead/unliving characters.

I think I see. It seems like all of these examples have to do with making sure that if a player wants to play an undead character, they don't get a lot of mechanical advantages relative to players who aren't playing undead characters. I can see how that would be a big deal in some games.

True20 and d20 have a very different design philosophy, which has its own way of balancing PCs against each other, and heroes vs. adversaries, but is less concerned with making those adversaries playable as potential PCs (or even PC-like NPCs).

Yeah, fair enough.

[Father of Dragons]

This is not the first time this issue has come up (see here for instance). I wonder if we ought to ask for an official ruling, so we at least know what was intended. There is some discussion of the issue in the True Sorcery errata (found here), but of course that doesn't apply to True20.

[calibur1]

I think I see. It seems like all of these examples have to do with making sure that if a player wants to play an undead character, they don't get a lot of mechanical advantages relative to players who aren't playing undead characters. I can see how that would be a big deal in some games.

I believe timemrick hit on most of the majors. I could also mention Mutants & Masterminds and OVA, but they're based on the same principals as the others. If you want to play a vampire, an android, a minotaur, a half-dragon, a whole dragon, a fairy, what have you... sure, go ahead, but you're going to pay for it to keep it on par with the other PC's who are just playing mere mortals. It's not really a penalty, but rather a unique way of tweaking your character without unbalancing the party dynamic. They also give you the option of playing weaker or more powerful versions of such creatures, depending on how much you want to invest. Personally, I believe the cheapest and most balanced way to go as a PC vampire in a D20 or True20 game is with GR's Fang & Fury.