Alternative Damage System - with equivalent results

[Baduin]

If you want minions to be exactly the same as in the original rules, the threshold should be 7+toughness.

Damage = d20+Weapon Damage+Strength Bonus+Other Bonuses

If Damage equals Toughness+7, minion is out of combat.


If you want them to be a bit stronger, they could have 3 hurt boxes as usual.

If Damage equals Toughness+5 minion is Hurt
If Damage equals Toughness+10 minion is out of combat

If a minion suffers a fourth Hurt result, he is out of combat.


Or, finally, minions a bit stronger, and without complication (this works as long they don't have too high Toughness at most 1 or 2 higher than average damage)

If Damage equals Toughness+10 minion is out of combat

[emb]

Ok, sweet.

You haven't noticed a difference for regular characters though (because of that difference in calculation?)

[emb]

One thing to consider: People LIKE rolling their own toughness... it makes them feel more in control.

Here's an alternative (to this alternative).

Instead of rolling damage, roll (Toughness-Damage) against a set of flat DCs
15+ = OK!
10+ = Hurt
5+ = Wounded
0+ = Disabled
<0 = Dying

You'll notice this is just a different way of looking at the normal toughness rules. Then, you can add Baduin's alternative damage track if you want (which, really, is independent of the rest of his damage system).

This
1) Allows people to continue rolling toughness
2) Requires you to do a subtraction before you roll (not that bad, compared to post-roll)
3) Makes it so you don't have to screw up the conviction rules
4) Can still use Baduin's damage track (I think...Baduin?)

[Baduin]

The system for minions is exactly the same as in the standard rules, only with the d20 roll moved to the other side of the equation.

The system for characters is very different from standard - for one thing, there are no penalties to Toughness for successive injuries. I started calculating probabilities with the equivalent numbers added to Toughness - 7 for Hurt, 11 for Wounded, 16 for Dazed etc, but the probabilities didn't work out. Finally I arrived at the present proposition.

[emb]

Huh, interesting..

Ok, scratch my suggestion then... it wouldn't work.

[Kuni]

Baduin, would you be interested in showing the math that led you to your box system? Does it appear to always work regardless of the range of damage and armor values?

[Baduin]

Sorry, but I calculated it in Excel - and I would have to polish my spreadsheet a bit if it were to be posted. When the toughness is a great deal higher than damage, my system gives a bit greater probability to disable opponent - if I remember, for Damage 1 and Toughness 11 in original system you had a 1 % cumulative chance to disable opponent in 12 round, and in my in 9 round. Except for that, probabilities are remarkaby similar.

[DSRilk]

Interesting suggestion (though I'm not sure if I prefer doing it on the damage or toughness side). It wouldn't be hard to modify the Arena to use these new rules. That way we can get some additional insight into the impact. I like easier

Just to make sure I understand, it's basically identical to the current one with the following adjustments: 5 hurt boxes, 2 wound boxes, no toughness penalties. All numbers are otherwise the same and all side effects of each damage level are also intact.

[Kuni]

Interesting suggestion (though I'm not sure if I prefer doing it on the damage or toughness side). It wouldn't be hard to modify the Arena to use these new rules. That way we can get some additional insight into the impact. I like easier

Just to make sure I understand, it's basically identical to the current one with the following adjustments: 5 hurt boxes, 2 wound boxes, no toughness penalties. All numbers are otherwise the same and all side effects of each damage level are also intact.

I'm pretty sure it's been altered to 3 hurts and 3 wounds, with 1 disabled and 1 dying box.

[DSRilk]

I added the ability to remove the penalty from hurts and wounds and now allow you to cap hurts and wounds as well (effectively allowing you to replicate this option). This uses the toughness roll version. However, it should be identical (except for paperwork) to the damage roll version.

Initial numbers show that it's very similar (within one or two % margin of error on dying) for both 3/3 and 5/2. 3/3 seems to have a margin of error under 1% compared to the standard method. This includes massive swings in toughness (6 point differences with all other things being equal) and in similar level chars fighting as well as 3 and 5 level differences. All in all, it's basically the same odds as the current system, though there is a 2% difference or so in the victory conditions in 6+ higher gaps in toughness. Feel free to fiddle

For those that keep track (and not to derail this thread, but I didn't want to start a new one just for this comment), I promised the first phase of the online char generator last week. Unfortunately, I got really busy with real work. However, I should have a beta out no later than Wednesday, so keep an eye out if you're interested.

[Turanil]

What about implementing some ideas from this thread into that simplified damage condition track system?

[Kuni]

What about implementing some ideas from this thread into that simplified damage condition track system?

There's not a whole lot to add (beyond the drop of 1 on the condition track for your first Wound), unless you wanted to rework the Stunned/Dazed condition to instead be a drop on the track. It would probably work, and you'd have characters going unconscious a lot more easily(mostly from dropping off the track), but you'd need some mechanism(say, a full-round "Second Wind" action) to go back up the condition track.

Another plus to this idea is that characters wouldn't actually lose a turn from being Wounded, they'd just receive penalties to their attack from dropping down the track.

[emb]

I like this modification as-is. I've playtested it once, and it seems to work fine.

It doesn't change anything fundamental about the system, and the conditions aren't that hard to remember... Everybody uses a cheatsheet anyway

[Baduin]

If anyone prefers Toughness save but without penalties to save for wounds and hurts, I have modified my system accordingly. There is a bit greater difference in probabilities, but it is still very slight. The difference is that there are only 2 Wounded boxes, and 3 Hurt boxes. In short:

The Damage Track levels remain as in original - Hurt, Wounded, Disabled and Dying. There are NO penalties to Toughness for any injury.
There are 3 Hurt boxes, 2 Wounded boxes, 1 Disabled Box and 1 Dying Box. If a target suffers a result for which all boxes are already checked off, check off the next highest result.

I also edited the first post to put there both systems.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Um, I'm supremely confused. Let's see if I have this right:

Damage dealt is the same. Toughness save is the same. But instead of increasing penalties on a failure you just check off successive boxes?

What exactly is this fixing?