Determining Level Lag

[iwatt]

So let's say we've got a 7th level campaign.

The ogre has 4 creature levels, plus a +2 level lag, so they can have at most one level of a heroic role.

Am I interpreting that right?

Nah. Since Creature Levels count positevely towards level lag, I think TrueChick is saying that a ogre PC in a 7th level game would have:

4 Ogre Levels--->2 Level Lag
+5 heroic levels

Total 7

He'd have conviction as a level 5 character.

I'd probably go with a harsher penalty for humanoid levels (+1 lag/2 levels)

[The Shadow]

Wow. Pretty nice in the area of Combat bonus and saves, if you're right.

[iwatt]

Wow. Pretty nice in the area of Combat bonus and saves, if you're right.

Yeah. But if we do it as you propose (which is the default D&D way) we'd be counting the monster levels twice (once as is and also in the level lag).

The D&D rule always bothered me, since it assumed that monster HD were the same as class levels. Not true except for Dragons and Outsiders, IMO.

[True20Chick]

An Ogre has a level lag of 2, so a 5th level Ogre would be suitable for play in a group of 7th level heroes. An Ogre with no heroic levels would be suitable for a group of 2nd level heroes, etc.

Wow. Pretty nice in the area of Combat bonus and saves, if you're right.

Combat bonus isn't everything, though. The Ogre gets fewer skills for its 4 humanoid levels (only 2 + Int). Not only that, but since its first level was not in a heroic class, the Ogre has no access to a core ability. An Ogre warrior never gets Determination. An Ogre expert never gets Expertise. An Ogre adept never gets the Talent. Lack of a core ability is a considrable disadvantage, IMO.

[iwatt]

Not only that, but since its first level was not in a heroic class, the Ogre has no access to a core ability.

Wow. That's harsh. I might allow them to use the core abilities, but at double cost.

[True20Chick]

It's part of the rules in the Bestiary. A creature that takes levels in a heroic role is technically multiclassing. Their first levels are in a "creature role," so therefore they don't get heroic role core abilities.

[cthughua]

Say for the sake of argument a Monster was considered a "heroic" character. Is there any sort of Core Ability that the monster class could get?

[iwatt]

Say for the sake of argument a Monster was considered a "heroic" character. Is there any sort of Core Ability that the monster class could get?

That seems interesting. Since I'm sorta of drunk right now, I'll leave off thinking on it until tomorrow.

[The Shadow]

I was pondering the idea of monster "Core Abilities" myself. I mean, it's strange that 1st level humanoids have 'em, but 2nd level ones don't?

For many monsters, Determination seems appropriate. Likewise, the Talent seems right for some. (Particularly fey.) However, it would be cool to have unique ones.

[Father of Dragons]

I was pondering the idea of monster "Core Abilities" myself. I mean, it's strange that 1st level humanoids have 'em, but 2nd level ones don't?

For many monsters, Determination seems appropriate. Likewise, the Talent seems right for some. (Particularly fey.) However, it would be cool to have unique ones.

It seems to me that the standard core abilities allow a hero to do what they basically do ore and better: Determination allows Warriors to fight on when damage would stop them, the Talent allows Adepts to keep using powers when fatigue or the fact they didn't know a power needed would stop them, and Expertise allows an Expert to make skill checks they otherwise would have no way to make.

You could say that Core Abilities are heroic intensifications of a role. Well, what sorts of monsters have roles in life? I would say that only intelligent monsters would. Most monsters are Warriors of a sort, so as you said, Determination would be appropriate. Some highly magical monsters could be defined by their magic, and thus use the Talent. So what monsters might have other Core Abilities?

Elementals aren't very smart, but they aren't animals, either. I would argue that an elemental would have a Core Ability defined by their element, perhaps the ability to use conviction to use the appropriate shaping power as an Adept of their level? Intelligent undead hate the living while simultaneously lusting for their life force -- maybe a Core Ability based around negative levels? I'm going to have to go through the Beastly a monster at a time ...

[Sonja]

True20Chick is my hero!

Is there a final version of this tool? Will it be published in a book?

[TrueConvert]

I would say that monsters probably dont need Core Abilities, given the versitude of Traits they get. I do think though that we need to list each trait that is worth more than a feat and what it should be worth instead.

EDIT: Additional thought I had, how would you handle 1 level creatures, such as Goblins? Keep the level as part of the Level Lag formula, or what?

[Ulorian]

First off, I want to praise this fantastic work, True20Chick. This is a subject that I really wish was addressed in the core rules. Very well done.

Having said that, I have one minor criticism: there is a D&Dism that's crept into this discussion: the concept of creature level being an intrinsic part of a monster's definition.

In D&D, a monster's Hit Dice (the D&D equivalent of True20's monster level) are part of the creature's basic statistics. This is necessary because a monster's Hit Dice determine how many hit points it has, its base attack bonus, skill points, feats, and saves.

True20's use of level to represent a creature's advancement is a much more elegant concept, because it divorces toughness (i.e. hit points/Toughness) from level of prowess (i.e. BAB/Combat score, skill points, saves, and feats). The D&D system is hokey because of the strange problems that come from tying level and toughness together.

For example, let's look at the stats of a blue whale under the two systems. In D&D, a blue whale will have many Hit Dice because it is size Colossal or Gargantuan: a very large creature should have a lot of hit points, so this makes sense at first glance... until we look at the corollary effects. This blue whale now has the BAB of a high level fighter, incredible Reflex saves, tons of skill points, etc. That's silly. Under True20, this just doesn't happen. A blue whale is basically a peaceful creature, completely untrained in combat. It makes perfect sense to define an average blue whale as a level 2 or 3 Animal. Its Background will define its basic traits, including a very high Strength bonus, and Traits like 'Hold Breath'. If we want to create a more experienced whale, for example a bull who's been leading and defending his herd for years, we can simply apply the same Background and increase his level, making him a level 8 Animal for example.

What I'm saying is that we shouldn't, for example, describe all ogres as level 4 Humanoids (Giant). A young ogre might be a level 1 Humanoid. There could be a civilised village of ogres whose residents don't even have Humanoid levels; they all have levels in Ordinary only. Some of the villagers might even have levels in heroic roles instead.

Level is a trait of a specific individual, describing his life experiences; Background describes the traits of the race.

[True20Chick]

I haven't done much more with this idea than what's here. What I was trying was to shoehorn abilities so that the suggested level lag for the vampire would work out. That doesn't necessarily work, as some have pointed out. What will make this work is assigning a "weight" to each Trait. Some are obviously more valuable than others. However, doing so will likely "overwrite" the precedent set in the Bestiary, which is what I hope to avoid. I don't want to generate "errata" where none really existed before. So, I've set this on the back burner for a while to let it simmer to see what we can come up with.

[Dumok]

Well One Idea I was toying with, is that If I start a first level campaign, and someone wants to play an Ogre or Tiefling I would pretty much rule that the Character Starts off as a First level Ogre and MUST achieve the prerequisite number of Monster levels BEFORE taking a Character Class.
So If Player A takes an Ogre character, He then Must go through Levels 1-4 as the Giant Humanoid type (Probably as a teenager who hasnt completely grown in yet, eventually Earning the Large Size (as a Power)). However, If they take the Teifling They must take the 1rst Level as an Outsider then select their class once they reach 2nd Level. Obvious player character races Like Hobgoblins, Goblins, Kobolds, Orcs, Otter Folk and Elves (Non-Drow) would pretty much be treated as normal characters. What do you think?