Determining Level Lag

[True20Chick]

Level Lag for Monsters
I know there are a lot of number-crunchers and rules-tweakers out there. and this one is for you!

This is an exercise in determining the Level Lag for a given monster, should a player wish to run a monster as a character. Of course I am not suggesting that this is the method used to determine the official level lags in the True20Beastiary; I am only positing this as a means to an end.

This is just an experiment, and there may be many tweaks and adjustments forthcoming based on your questions, comments, and suggestions.

Size: Depends on size category.
Tiny and smaller: -.5 level lag
Large and Huge: +.5 level lag
Gargantuan and Colossal: +1 level lag
Abilities: Add together the creature’s ability scores and subtract 6. Divide the result by 8. The remainder is the level lag from ability modifiers. (Do not subtract 6 before dividing when calculating the level lag of a template).
Speed: +.25 level lag per 5 ft. movement over 30, -.25 level lag per 5 ft. movement under 30. Additional level lag is dependent on other movement types and their utility.
Burrow: Burrow is dependent on the environment (can’t burrow through rock or water), and provides the advantage of surprise in certain situations. It is worth a level lag of +.25.
Climb, Swim: These movement types are dependent upon the environment, and aren’t always useful. The do come with significant bonuses to the relevant skill and provide the ability to take 10 on those skill checks even when rushed or threatened. They are worth a level lag of +.25.
Flight: Useful in most any terrain, flight is worth a level lag of +.5.
Skills: Depends on skills by creature type.
2 + Int: -.25 level lag
4 + Int: +0 level lag
6 + Int: +.25 level lag
Feats: Monsters get feats at 1/3 the rate of heroes. This is worth a -.5 level lag. However, every BONUS feat (or power) the monster receives adds another +.25 level lag.
Traits: Traits offer significant advantages over heroic characters. Count each trait as being at least equal to a bonus feat (i.e. each trait is a +.25 level lag). Apply a -.25 level lag for each Weakness or Vulnerability.
Saves: Depends on the number of Good saves.
No Good Saves: -.25 level lag
One Good: +0 level lag
Two Good: +.25 level lag
Three Good: +.5 level lag
Natural Armor: +.25 level lag per +2 points of natural armor.

Add up all the positive and negative level lags, and round down. The result is the level lag for the monster.

Ogre
Size: Large, +.5 level lag
Abilities: -2 net ability bonuses, -.25 level lag
Speed: 30 ft., +0 level lag
Skills: 2 + Int, -.25 level lag
Bonus Feats: -.5 for being a monster, +1 for having 4 bonus feats for a total of +.5 level lag
Traits: Darkvision, +.25 level lag
Saves: One Good, +0 level lag
Total Level Lag: .75, rounded down to +0 level lag.

Vampire (Template)
Abilities: +9 net ability bonuses, +1 level lag
Bonus Feats: It gets 2 bonus feats, and its slam attack is basically the same as it getting the Improved Strike feat. It also gets the Mind Touch (as per errata) and Dominate powers, which count as 2 more feats for an effective total of 5 feats for a +1.25 level lag.
Traits: Alternate Form, Blood Drain, Children of the Night, Create Spawn, Damage Reduction, Fast Healing, Gaseous Form, Immunities, Resistance, Spider Climb, 2 Weaknesses, which count as 10 feats, minus 2 for two Weaknesses, for a +2 level lag
Natural Armor: +3 points, for a +.25 level lag
Total Level Lag: +4.5, total +4 level lag

[cthughua]

Nice! This helps me a great deal, not just for playing non-standard races for character but also for scaling villains.

[iwatt]

Is the ogre PC supposed to continue advancing inthe ogre class, or can he switch to a PC role at some point?


Which begs another question: if a PC can have monster and heroic levels, do their monster levels count when determining conviction?

[Father of Dragons]

I was pondering a Slayer template, a la Buffer the Vampire Slayer, and this give a nice way to "cost" it out.

Vampire Slayer Template

Ability Modifiers:
Strength +4
Dexterity +4
Constitution +4
Wisdom +2*
Charisma +2

(*) Well, for ability and saving throws, anyway.

Bonus Feats:
Favored Enemy (Fiends**)
Lucky

(**) This category includes vampires in the Buffyverse.

Powers: (Charisma-based)
Visions
Supernatural Strike

Other Traits
Fast Healing (1 minute)
+2 Conviction


Well, according to True20Chick's rules, level lag is +2 for ability scores, +1 for feats and powers, and +0.75 for traits (counting +2 conviction twice), which rounds down to 3. This seems plausable. (And yes, the ability score modifiers are extreme, but I believe them to be correct.)

Of course, if we're talking the actual TV show, Buffy got the template free for being the main character. Also, all of the reoccuring characters clearly picked up levels over the course of the show. I suspect Buffy started out as a Warrior 1 with the Vampire Slayer template, and picked up levels in Warrior and Expert as the show progressed.

[True20Chick]

Is the ogre PC supposed to continue advancing inthe ogre class, or can he switch to a PC role at some point?

It's a humanoid with an intelligence greater than -4, so it advances in the heroic role.

Which begs another question: if a PC can have monster and heroic levels, do their monster levels count when determining conviction?

Good question, and one that I hadn't considered. It's worth discussing here!

[Gabriel]

I would say that the following excerpt from the Adversaries chapter in the True20 Adventere Roleplaying book would apply:

Creatures generally have no Conviction points, but can gain conviction by taking levels in a heroic role, in which case the creature acquires the same Conviction as a hero of that level.

It seems to imply that only the levels of the heroic role would be used to determine conviction.

This would also apply to Ordinaries that take a level or more in a heroic role.

Only minions do not have conviction, even with heroic roles.

[ValhallaGH]

Which begs another question: if a PC can have monster and heroic levels, do their monster levels count when determining conviction?

Depends upon the Narrator's desires.

Want to slip in another reason to not play monstrous PCs? Don't allow monster levels to count for Conviction. So an ogre is a level 4 humanoid (giant) and a level X hero; he gets conviction for his hero levels only.

Want all player characters to be cool and fun regardless of role? Give them conviction equal to their total character level.

You then have the option of including or excluding level lag from the Conviction calculation.

[iwatt]

Want to slip in another reason to not play monstrous PCs? Don't allow monster levels to count for Conviction. So an ogre is a level 4 humanoid (giant) and a level X hero; he gets conviction for his hero levels only.

Want all player characters to be cool and fun regardless of role? Give them conviction equal to their total character level.

You then have the option of including or excluding level lag from the Conviction calculation.

Well, but deciding this will have an impact on the claculation of level lag, as per True20 Chick system, See, she discounts level lag based on monster levels 'cause they get less feats. Wether monster levels do count towards conviction, then they should modify level lag, one way ot another IMO. That's because a monster race that requiers 4 levels isn't the same as a monster race that requires 8.

In any case, Lvele lag should never count when calculating conviction, because that is the lag's balancer. IMO of course.

[The Shadow]

A few points:

First, rounding 0.75 down to 0 sticks in my craw. My first impulse is that it would be better to round 0.5 and 0.75 up, and 0.25 down. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, though.

Second, aren't monsters missing 4 1st level feats?

Rather than -0.5 for "being a monster" how about -0.25 for every heroic feat they're "missing".

So your ogre would be -1 for 4 feats missing, and +0.5 for two bonus feats, for -0.5 for feats.

A fifth level humanoid similar to the ogre would be missing 7 feats rather than 4, so would be -1.25 in feats. Hmmm. That does seem like too much.

Third, much as I hate to say it, treating all traits as equal seems excessively kind. Basically, there is a subset that should cost double.

[77IM]

Traits: Traits offer significant advantages over heroic characters. Count each trait as being at least equal to a bonus feat (i.e. each trait is a +.25 level lag).

(red emphasis mine)

I interpret that to imply that traits do have a variable cost, although I agree it should be made more explicit. Maybe list the traits available in the core book and suggested cost for each one?


True20Chick, this is a really awesome system. One question I have: Do the monster's "monster levels" count as levels as well, and are they equal to heroic levels? Is it possible to have "negative" level-lag? (Maybe a creature with 8 monster levels, but they're kind of lousy ability-wise so they wind up with a -2 level lag. This may work well with the Shadow's "missing feats" pricing.)

OK, that's like 3 questions.

-- 77IM

[True20Chick]

... I am so brainless. I didn't account for creature levels?

This does need tweaking then. I can't believe I did that!

That'll teach me to post my ideas without thoroughly looking them over!

[cthughua]

Are you kidding me? You can't be 100% right ALL the time Chick!

Seriously though, I think that's the biggest draw for a community forum is sharing ideas and watching them grow/expand. Gives us something to talk about too...

[The Shadow]

I interpret that to imply that traits do have a variable cost, although I agree it should be made more explicit. Maybe list the traits available in the core book and suggested cost for each one?

Granted, but the vampire example treats them all the same: Gaseous Form and Fast Healing count the same as Spider Climb.

[True20Chick]

Ok... by way of streamlining things, let's try this:

Size: Depends on size category.
Tiny and smaller: -.5 level lag
Large and Huge: +.5 level lag
Gargantuan and Colossal: +1 level lag
Creature Levels: Monsters get feats at 1/3 the rate of heroes. Every 3 creature levels is +1 level lag.
Abilities: Add together the creature’s ability scores and subtract 6. Divide the result by 8. The remainder is the level lag from ability modifiers. (Do not subtract 6 before dividing when calculating the level lag of a template).
Speed: +.25 level lag per 5 ft. movement over 30, -.25 level lag per 5 ft. movement under 30. Additional level lag is dependent on other movement types and their utility.
Burrow: Burrow is dependent on the environment (can’t burrow through rock or water), and provides the advantage of surprise in certain situations. It is worth a level lag of +.25.
Climb, Swim: These movement types are dependent upon the environment, and aren’t always useful. The do come with significant bonuses to the relevant skill and provide the ability to take 10 on those skill checks even when rushed or threatened. They are worth a level lag of +.25.
Flight: Useful in most any terrain, flight is worth a level lag of +.5.
Skills: Depends on skills by creature type.
2 + Int: -.25 level lag
4 + Int: +0 level lag
6 + Int: +.25 level lag
Feats: Every BONUS feat (or power) the monster receives adds another +.25 level lag.
Traits: Traits offer significant advantages over heroic characters. Count each trait as being at least equal to a bonus feat (i.e. each trait is a +.25 level lag). Apply a -.25 level lag for each Weakness or Vulnerability.
Saves: Depends on the number of Good saves.
No Good Saves: -.25 level lag
One Good: +0 level lag
Two Good: +.25 level lag
Three Good: +.5 level lag
Natural Armor: +.25 level lag per +2 points of natural armor.

Add up all the positive and negative level lags, and round down. The result is the level lag for the monster.

Ogre
Size: Large, +.5 level lag
Creature Levels: 4 humanoid levels for +1 level lag
Abilities: -2 net ability bonuses, -.25 level lag
Speed: 30 ft., +0 level lag
Skills: 2 + Int, -.25 level lag
Bonus Feats: +1 for having 4 bonus feats for a total of +.5 level lag
Traits: Darkvision, +.25 level lag
Saves: One Good, +0 level lag
Total Level Lag: 2.25, rounded down to +2 level lag.

And we can do Traits on a case-by case basis. Let's start listing traits from the Bestiary and assigning level lag.

[The Shadow]

So let's say we've got a 7th level campaign.

The ogre has 4 creature levels, plus a +2 level lag, so they can have at most one level of a heroic role.

Am I interpreting that right?