Resources / Downtime

[elf23]

Ok, here's a framework-in-progress.

Open topics:

• A maximum to accumulated Time points, modified by level, Wis and feats. (You can spend more Time if you earn a lot in one go, but you can't accumulate more.)
• Conviction recovery mirroring Wealth and Reputation gain. (Check Difficulty 10 + current Conviction.)
• Still not sure about whether Conviction re-rolls remain as in the RAW, or are replaced by Time re-rolls...

Also, i was wondering whether the Wealthy feat should grant a permanent +2 bonus to Wealth checks (rather than a +4 Wealth bonus which can be spent). I'm not that keen on the idea of a "temporary" feat.

Please pull it apart and re-form it as desired


Time
Time awards
You are awarded Time points by the Narrator to represent down-time between adventures, which you may have made use of in various ways. Time awards are generally no more than 10 points.

Uses of Time
Time points can be spent when awarded, or can be accumulated for future use. The maximum number of Time points you can accumulate is:

• 10 + ½ level + Wis + feats

Time points have the following uses:

• Gaining Wealth, Reputation or Conviction
• Recovering from conditions
• Re-rolling checks
• Craft checks

Using Time in retrospect
All the above uses of Time (except for recovering from conditions) can be used in retrospect – you can declare how you have used your down-time at the point of needing the end result.

Gaining Wealth
You can attempt to increase your Wealth by spending 10 Time points and making a profession check:

• Professional skill + d20 vs Difficulty 10 + current Wealth

If you succeed your Wealth increases by +1. For every additional 5 points of success you gain a further +1 Wealth.

Wealth awards
You may be awarded Wealth by the Narrator for any valuables or rewards which you have gained through adventuring. Wealth awards are generally no more than +4.

Gaining Reputation
You can attempt to increase your Reputation by spending 10 Time points and making a profession check:

• Professional skill + d20 vs Difficulty 10 + current Reputation

If you succeed your Reputation increases by +1. For every additional 5 points of success you gain a further +1 Reputation.

Reputation awards
You may be awarded Reputation by the Narrator for any renown you have gained through adventuring. Reputation awards are generally no more than +4.

Gaining Conviction
You can attempt to increase your Conviction by spending down-time engaging in whatever kind of activity you find relaxing, inspiring and refreshing. Spend 1 Time point and make a Conviction recovery check:

• Cha + d20 vs Difficulty 10 + current Conviction

If you succeed you gain a Conviction point. For every additional 5 points of success you gain a further Conviction point.

Alternatively you can spend 3 Time points to automatically gain a Conviction point.

Conviction awards
You may be awarded a point of Conviction by the Narrator (as per usual in the RAW - Following your Nature... As an award following a particularly spectacular or heroic deed... etc).

Condition recovery
You can recover from various debilitating conditions (such as injury or disease) by spending Time points and making a recovery check:

• Con + d20 vs Difficulty 10

If you succeed you have recovered from the condition.

Alternatively you can spend 3 times as many Time points to automatically recover from the condition.

The number of Time points required depends on the condition you are recovering from.

Re-rolling checks
You can spend a point of Time to re-roll any check or attack roll, in a similar manner to using Conviction. However, to spend Time points in this way you must be able to justify how you have used your down-time to improve your chance of success. For example a scholar may re-roll a Knowledge check by spending a Time point and describing how he used the time researching in a library, or a warrior may re-roll an attack roll by spending a Time point and describing the time he spent on combat practice.

Using Time in this way is down to the Narrator's discretion.

Using Craft
To make items using the Craft skill, you must spend Time as follows, in addition to making the required skill check:

• Simple items require 1 Time point.
• Moderate items require 2 Time points.
• Complex items require 4 Time points.
• Advanced items require 8 Time points.

Feats
Resourceful
You use your time well. Increase the maximum of your accumulated Time points by +2.

[iwatt]

thanks for that elf!

Still not sure about whether Conviction re-rolls remain as in the RAW, or are replaced by Time re-rolls...

We could say that Time rerolls only apply to attacks and skill checks, and Conviction only as plot armor.

[The Shadow]

elf23: Interesting! Thanks for that.

So we're uncapping Conviction but capping Time? (Granted that Conviction is self-limiting - and the more so if Time is used for re-rolls.) And is the automatic wealth-by-level gone or not?

I'm trying to understand the Time cap. I guess the idea is that once enough time has passed since you earned a Time point, it 'wears off', so to speak? ie, you can only benefit from *recent* downtime. That does make some sense. I'm not 100% happy with giving Wis even more to do; I wonder if Int should be involved?

I'm not sure I see a need to limit what sort of re-rolls Time can grant; it's easy to justify almost anything. Just use the standard "carousing" justification.

If Conviction retains *any* form of re-rolling, but especially if it can reroll Toughness, I'm not sure we need Time to have any. I mean, the whole reason why I'm tempted to take re-rolling away from Conviction is that the plot-armor aspect tends to overshadow the other cool stuff Conviction can do. (Conviction can still be recovered by the usual Narrative methods, right? After scenes, and from hardships, as well as via nature?)

Basically, I'm afraid that people are going to just cash in their Time for Conviction and call it good. And then use the Conviction almost exclusively for rerolling Toughness.

Since you've changed the way Conviction is recovered, I'm not sure the 3:1 ratio still works. Perhaps 3 points lets you take 20 on Conviction Recovery? (Strictly speaking, by the rules it should be 20 points, but that seems extreme.) Also, I suspect it should be an extra Conviction for every 10 you beat the Difficulty by, not 5.

EDIT: Oh, and this is important: Any use of Time can be done retroactively, *except* for recovery from damage. That just wouldn't make any sense at all. You have to do damage recovery on the spot, when you're awarded the points. (Which means you have to use the points you were just awarded, you can't use saved points.)

Or... Maybe not? Is there any way that damage recovery could be retroactive as well? I ask only because it would mean one less thing to keep track of.

[The Shadow]

Further idea. For people who like "experience points" or level training a la older D&D, you might need to "buy" new levels with Time!

Which means you gotta calculate, "Do I buy Conviction or a new level?"

Or now that Conviction is uncapped, maybe Conviction IS experience points? You can spend them on cool stuff, or save them for advancement?

[elf23]

I'm trying to understand the Time cap. I guess the idea is that once enough time has passed since you earned a Time point, it 'wears off', so to speak? ie, you can only benefit from *recent* downtime. That does make some sense. I'm not 100% happy with giving Wis even more to do; I wonder if Int should be involved?

Hm... Yeah i'm not convinced either...

Given the idea in the Craft thread for calculating Time requirements based on complexity and cost of items (i really like that system, btw): we definitely need to allow large amounts of Time to be saved up. But the problem then is that we *don't* want all those saved up Time points to suddenly be used for hundreds of re-rolls...

To be honest that points to: leave Conviction with its re-rolling ability as is (and some kind of cap - whether a "hard" limit, or an increasingly Difficult recovery check), and allow Time to:

• Gain Wealth or Reputation (profession check)
• Gain Conviction (the "carousing" idea)
• Craft

I do like the idea of using Time for re-rolls, rather than Conviction, but i can't see how it'd work in conjuction with the ability for Heroes to save up 150 Time points to make a suit of full-plate!

Any ideas?

And is the automatic wealth-by-level gone or not?

Auto-wealth with level gain should go, i reckon, and be replaced by spending Time. It makes more sense, especially in that you earn wealth from your profession during your down time, rather than by adventuring (ie gaining levels).

[iwatt]

Auto erp and wealth is gone with this system.

I'd keep the time cap on. Nothing says that you have to spend all the time points at once, so no need to hoard 150. You could be spending them as you earn them.

Look, if you're crafting a MW Full Plate, the truth of the matter is that you'll have to do it during extended stops between adventures. It just takes too long otherwise. For example, I run a lot of Adventure paths. Since I loathe the level 1-20 in a month phenomenon, I give extended down time in between. So he gains 100 time points given the length of time between adventures. He still can only start the next adventures with X time points. What has he done with those 100 time points: He could stock up on Wealth. Stock up on Rep. Stock up on conviction (The DC for the recovery check will sky-rocket, and we could come up with a sliding scale of Auto Conviction buying costs to reduce extreme hoarding by diminishing returns). FInally, they can Craft.

d20+Cha vs 10+Current conviction: after 6 or 7 conviction it's going to become harder and harder to gain more.

Auto-Gain conviction: 1-5 Convictions Points: 3 TPs; 6-10 Convictions Points: 5 TPs; 11+ 10 TPs

or it could actually be: the TP cost to autogain Conviction is equal to your current Conviction total.

[elf23]

Great, that makes sense - that you can earn any amount of Time points, but you can only save a certain amount for use in adventures. Any excess you have to spend when you earn it, or lose it.

I guess for crafting a very complex item it would be ok to keep a running total of how much Time you've spent on it. It's a bit of extra book-keeping, but crafting such complex items is such a rare case that it probably doesn't matter too much.

or it could actually be: the TP cost to autogain Conviction is equal to your current Conviction total.

Great idea! (Minimum 1 )

So he gains 100 time points given the length of time between adventures. He still can only start the next adventures with X time points. What has he done with those 100 time points: He could stock up on Wealth. Stock up on Rep. Stock up on conviction...

That's something i was thinking about actually... Say a character gains a lot of Time in one go and wants to spend it all on profession checks to increase his Wealth. Rather than making the player roll 10 seperate profession checks, could we come up with a system where for any amount of Time you make a single check and get a bonus depending how much Time you put into it?

Maybe something like you gain a +1 bonus to your profession check for every 5 Time points you spend beyond the basic 10.

So, an extreme case: a character with Wealth 0, and a professional skill of rank 30 who spent 100 Time points on a profession check (90 extra points = +18), and rolled a 20 (for a total check result of 30 + 18 + 20 = 68), would gain +11 Wealth (58 more than Difficulty 10, divided by 5).

A more average case: a character with Wealth 10, and a professional skill of rank 15 who spent 100 Time points on a profession check (90 extra points = +18), and rolled a 20 (for a total check result of 15 + 18 + 20 = 53), would gain +6 Wealth (33 more than Difficulty 20, divided by 5).

Both those examples sound reasonable to me. But im not that good with working out formulae, so it may be totally broken!

Similarly, this kind of system could work for using Time to gain Conviction.

[elf23]

I'm not 100% happy with giving Wis even more to do; I wonder if Int should be involved?

Yeah, Int could equally be justifiable as a modifier, i think. That ties in well with its role of giving extra skill ranks - you can use your time to better effect and learn, study or do more with it.

Any thoughts on the Resourceful feat and on Wealthy giving a bonus to Wealth checks, rather than a temporary increase in Wealth?

[The Shadow]

elf23: Your examples for Wealth bonus for extra Time look very promising!

How would that work, though? Just like the plate armor? That is, you keep investing Time points and then finally announce, "OK, I'm going to make my roll now?"

My main issue with it is that it seems like you could get more Wealth by buying ten rolls for 100 Time, rather than one roll with bonuses. Maybe, although there's no longer any automatic wealth-by-level, you can still only get one Wealth roll per level?

I'm not 100% happy with giving Wis even more to do; I wonder if Int should be involved?

Yeah, Int could equally be justifiable as a modifier, i think. That ties in well with its role of giving extra skill ranks - you can use your time to better effect and learn, study or do more with it.

Exactly. You get more out of what you put in.

Any thoughts on the Resourceful feat and on Wealthy giving a bonus to Wealth checks, rather than a temporary increase in Wealth?

Rather than a bonus to Wealth checks (which is basically a permanent boost to Wealth), how about a bonus to Wealth awards? ie, if the Narrator awards everyone 3 points, you get 4. The idea being that you're more savvy about how you invest it or whatever. You make the money go further.

[elf23]

How would that work, though? Just like the plate armor? That is, you keep investing Time points and then finally announce, "OK, I'm going to make my roll now?"

It could work like that, but i imagined it more for cases, like iwatt mentioned, where there's a few months space in between adventures, so all the Heroes would gain 100 Time points, say.

My main issue with it is that it seems like you could get more Wealth by buying ten rolls for 100 Time, rather than one roll with bonuses. Maybe, although there's no longer any automatic wealth-by-level, you can still only get one Wealth roll per level?

Yeah, that's what i was wondering about too, and i don't have a clue where to begin calculating a system that statistically would come out the same whether you rolled 10 checks without bonuses, or one check with a big bonus!

I mean, actually maybe it's not a problem to require players to make 10 seperate profession checks in these reasonably rare situations of big chunks of down time. (I guess we should just go with that, unless someone has a stroke of statistical genius... )

Rather than a bonus to Wealth checks (which is basically a permanent boost to Wealth), how about a bonus to Wealth awards? ie, if the Narrator awards everyone 3 points, you get 4. The idea being that you're more savvy about how you invest it or whatever. You make the money go further.

Yeah, sounds good.

[elf23]

I'm hoping to playtest a rough version of this system next weekend - give the players some Time points and let them spend them in various ways.

For the sake of simplicity, and compatibility with the current rules, i think i'll limit the changes to the following, for the time being:

Time can be spent:

• To gain Wealth or Reputation (costs 10 Time for a profession check vs 15 + Wealth).
• To gain Conviction (1 Time grants a recovery check: Cha + d20 vs 10, or 3 Time grants an auto-Conviction, with the normal limits on Conviction).
• To re-roll checks, either with a specific justification or the general "carousing" justification.
• To recover from conditions.
• Craft etc (not an issue, as none of the Heroes have any Craft skills at the moment...)

"Saved" Time is limited to 10 + Half level + Int.

Conviction can be used for all its normal uses (including re-rolls). But hopefully with time re-rolls Conviction should be freed up for more heroic feats, surges, core abilities, etc.

(I don't feel confident yet with changing limits on Conviction until we've really thoroughly thought through a system for that, as it affects so many other things in the game... The basic assumption being that Heroes get tougher and can do more cool stuff as they increase in level due to having more Conviction.)

Also, I'm not sure how all this might affect Narrator Conviction (as the Heroes will have a lot more re-rolls under their belts now), but i might just go with the simple system that the Narrator can spend as much Conviction as s/he likes, but a Conviction point spent against the Heroes grants the most affected Hero a free Conviction point back in return.

How's that sound as a not-too-radical system that's compatible with the RAW?

[The Shadow]

Sounds good - let us know how it works!

As for the statistics, I can figure it out with a little work. Or at worst come up with a spreadsheet to do so.

[elf23]

Rather than a bonus to Wealth checks (which is basically a permanent boost to Wealth), how about a bonus to Wealth awards? ie, if the Narrator awards everyone 3 points, you get 4. The idea being that you're more savvy about how you invest it or whatever. You make the money go further.

Additionally, Renown and Low profile could work in the same way for Reputation awards - increasing or decreasing them, respectively.

(It seems like there should be a Poor feat, to mirror Low profile, but i can't imagine anyone would ever take it!)

[The Shadow]

Additionally, Renown and Low profile could work in the same way for Reputation awards - increasing or decreasing them, respectively.

That was already suggested on the Reputation thread.

(It seems like there should be a Poor feat, to mirror Low profile, but i can't imagine anyone would ever take it!)

Only if there were some advantage to being poor. In Caliphate Nights, there actually is - there are a whole slew of feats that have a *maximum* Wealth level for a prerequisite.

Actually, Poor would do better as a flaw - it would either give you an extra feat, or else perhaps give you a point of Conviction every time it caused you problems.

[elf23]

Additionally, Renown and Low profile could work in the same way for Reputation awards - increasing or decreasing them, respectively.

That was already suggested on the Reputation thread.

Could it just work as simply as you get an extra +1 to any Wealth awards? (Or +1 to Reputation awards for Renown, or -1 to Reputation awards for Low profile...)

It seems like that'd work fine (and it's easier than saying the award increases by 25% or something).