Two weapon fighting question.

[Stefan Hill]

Hi,

I'm slightly new to True20, other than reading it I hadn't run anything until a few weeks ago. I converted the old 1e AD&D adventure Ravenloft to True20. Ravenloft runs better under True20 than it ever did under D&D in my opinion. Players running and scream etc, makes a GM's heart warm.

Anyway my question. We had someone using two weapons. The rules (sorry I'm doing this form memory) weren't 100% clear on how this work in combat. Do you get 2 attacks and they both act like the rules on concentrated attacks? Or can you attack two targets close by each other with a different weapon doing each weapons specific damage but if you use both attacks against the same target than you use the concentrated attack rules?

Many thanks,
Stefan.

[True20Chick]

Or can you attack two targets close by each other with a different weapon doing each weapons specific damage but if you use both attacks against the same target than you use the concentrated attack rules?

This one. Increase the greater weapon's damage by +2 when attacking the same target.

It may seem strange, but when you think about it, the odds of a enemy failing one higher Toughness save is greater than failing two lower ones, and they'll usually fail the higher save by a larger margin, increasing the chance of more serious wound.

[Stefan Hill]

Thanks for that. It was the way we played it, but someone pointed out that the type weapon in the offhand really doesn't matter. A dagger or a rolling pin still results in the same end effect under the concentrated attack rules.

Thanks,
Stefan.

[True20Chick]

When DR comes into it, it does tend to complicate things.

I'd rule that the +2 damage is added to whichever weapon would be most advantageous to the hero. He can choose to add the +2 to the weapon with the greater damage bonus OR to the one which would overcome the opponent's DR. Each has it's own potential advantages and disadvantages.

Or, you could drop the single Toughness save when DR is involved, and roll the Toughness save for each weapon independently.

The combine attack rule for two weapon fighting is really meant to help streamline combat and give the two-weapon wielder a damage boost at the same time. If you find it better in your campaigns to do it another way, then have at it.

Edit: If your post above wasn't about DR, my apologies.

Weapon type doesn't really matter unless DR is a factor. If you're fighting with a dagger and a rolling pin and get a Wounded condition on your enemy, you could describe is as a nasty cut on on arm and and a bump on the head. In the narrative it doesn't matter how you explain the Wounded condition. Mechanically, it still counts as a single Wound.

[cthughua]

I say apply the DR to the weapon damage for which it applies, if this brings the two weapons outside of the +/- 5 variance allowed for coordinated attacks, the +2 dmg bonus is lost, if it does not, apply it as normal.

[True20Chick]

Certainly that is another great option. The weaker weapon might end up not doing enough damage to even be included in the combined damage.

[cthughua]

Right, you've paraphrased the gist of what I was saying. This allows the DR to still remain valid, when it applies, by lessening the damage potential of the attacker.

[ValhallaGH]

Right, you've paraphrased the gist of what I was saying. This allows the DR to still remain valid, when it applies, by lessening the damage potential of the attacker.

DR in True 20 is terribly misnamed, since it provides a Toughness Bonus, not a reduction of the damage taken.

House rules can make it be more intuitive.

[cthughua]

Right, I realize this, but Toughness/Damage are two sides of the same coin. A reduction of Damage is a Bonus to Toughness so to speak. I realize that DR is a misnomer, but like you said, a house rule can make it work.

[ValhallaGH]

Right, I realize this, but Toughness/Damage are two sides of the same coin. A reduction of Damage is a Bonus to Toughness so to speak.

No, it's really not. The only way it becomes almost accurate is if you accept the premise that any damaging attack can hurt anything, even targets with super-natural damage reduction (were-creatures, dragons, vampires, etc.).

If you Reduce damage, then you can reduce it to the point where it can't hurt you at all. So, if DR actually reduced the damage to less than +0, the target might not need to save, at all.

A bonus to Toughness just means that it's less likely to hurt when a cat (Str -4) claws you, not that it can't cause a serious injury (Wounded or worse).

[cthughua]

If you Reduce damage, then you can reduce it to the point where it can't hurt you at all. So, if DR actually reduced the damage to less than +0, the target might not need to save, at all.

Is that in the DR rules? I'm not arguing, I'm just saying I don't remember it. Since there are creatures that deal negative damage (a Rat's -1 Bite damage for example) I don't agree with the logic. If that is a rule, I've discarded it, if DR brings damage to below Zero the Toughness save just becomes that much easier.

[ValhallaGH]

Is that in the DR rules? I'm not arguing, I'm just saying I don't remember it. Since there are creatures that deal negative damage (a Rat's -1 Bite damage for example) I don't agree with the logic. If that is a rule, I've discarded it, if DR brings damage to below Zero the Toughness save just becomes that much easier.

It's not in the rules because DR doesn't reduce damage.
If DR did reduce damage then it should be in the rules; among other things it displays the fact that some things actually can't hurt the critter because of it's supernatural ability to ignore damage. This ability would be displayed by allowing it to ignore some damage.
Since the rules don't reduce damage, there's no reason to think that the critter gets to ignore it. So a cat's -4 damage scratch still forces that Toughness save, and can seriously injure and eventually kill a werewolf (and seriously injure, and eventually force the misty-retreat of, a vampire).

[tezrak]

(Revisiting this thread as I convert some 3.5 prestige classes to T20 prestige feats)

So there's nothing in the description of fighting with two weapons (core rulebook, p. 108) that says it's a full-round action. Does that mean it's just a standard action?

I ask, because in 3.5/Pathfinder, anything that involves more than one attack (unless it was a free immediate attack, a la Cleave) necessitates a full-round action.

Even in the list of actions in combat in the Combat Round (core rulebook, p. 99) doesn't list two-weapon fighting as a full-round action. It lists Attack, and Combined Attack as standard actions.

I tend to agree with the discussion about damage reduction in that it should explicitly be a decrease in the damage of the attack, rather than a bonus to the creature's Toughness save. I might be restating what's already been said, but look at it this way:

I attack the fiend with DR 4/supernatural. I have a sword, but it's not a supernatural weapon. Sword has a damage bonus of +3. My Str is +0. That DR should lower the damage of the attack to -1 (DC 14). But I think the greater issue is whether or not there should be some sort of floor whereupon the save is automatically successful: for instance, let's say if the Toughness save DC is reduced to below 15, or to 10, or 5, or something along those lines, then the save is considered automatically successful.

If DR is just a bonus to the creature's Toughness save, then yes it will be harder to damage the creature (increasing the creature's chance of saving), but a lucky roll could still suck for the creature (especially if I use Conviction to re-roll).

[ValhallaGH]

Two-Weapon fighting is a standard action.

[True20Chick]

Two-Weapon fighting is a standard action.

Confirmed by Steve Kenson. I emailed him about it. The type of action is not specified, so it's a standard action.