The Monster Roles Project

[ValhallaGH]

An Herbivorous Brute is definitely not the same experience to encounter as a Predator Brute!

Seriously. The difference between a rhinoceros or cape buffalo attack versus a lion or tiger attack.

[iwatt]

So basically we have two approaches here.

I) Monster Roles: These are class advancement tables that are basically fluff free, crunch heavy and well adjusted to each level of party. Similar to Iron Heroes Villain Classes and 4Es acclaimed monster generation system. VGH has begun work on this.

II) B&R: Background and Roles Basically, Backgrounds must be priced somehow and then advancement can be obtained through the core roles and even some Custom Roles.

Each one has advantages and disadvantages, and I believe are worthy approaches worth working on. They aren't even mutually exclusive, since the B&R can be used for PCs as well as NPCs, while VGHs makes encounter generation a breeze.

Given that this thread is already dedicated to I), I'll take the B&R project discussion back to were it should be, the Determining Level Lag thread.

[ValhallaGH]

I) Monster Roles: These are class advancement tables that are basically fluff free, crunch heavy and well adjusted to each level of party. Similar to Iron Heroes Villain Classes and 4Es acclaimed monster generation system. VGH has begun work on this....
Given that this thread is already dedicated to I), I'll take the B&R project discussion back to were it should be, the Determining Level Lag thread.

I like that idea. Parallel rules, that can be used separately or at the same time depending upon Narrator needs. Many options that can be used for encounter design and creation, and it's the Narrator's choice as to which is most appropriate.

Now, back to the problem of what monstrous roles to use.
What do people need?
I need things that smash, things that dash, and things that blast. Some of my needs can be filled by creatures using heroic roles, but some of it really can't be. So, I will get started on those roles.

What do other folks need?

[iwatt]

What I think the game could use:

Artillery: is what you mean by Blaster
Brute: You already have it
Controller: This would be interesting as well, though it might be handled directly by a roled NPC, given the extreme variability of powers?
Lurker: this would be the ninja class. See Hong's Murderous Assassin Villain Class for inspiration
Skirmisher: haven't really seen how these work or not, so I have no idea what they do.

Warleader: Based on the IH Villain Class. Or the 4E equivalent.

[ValhallaGH]

Okay, I went ahead and did up the lurker. I've updated the download with the full write-up, but here's the part that's not on the chart.

Lurker
The lurker specializes in taking down opponents by underhanded means, and when the prey least expects it. Lurkers are at a disadvantage in a fair fight, but their skills at stealth and deception ensure it should be difficult to pin them down.
This role is good for stealthy ninja, singular assassins, cave-dwelling sudden death, or other foes that strike suddenly and unexpectedly, relying upon surprise and precision to defeat powerful foes. Lurkers generally fall quickly if unable to escape to strike again.
Level: A lurker of the indicated level is a good challenge for a party of about four heroes of that level. One-on-one, a lurker has a good chance of defeating a single hero, under optimal circumstances. Lurkers are rated for levels 1 to 20, under the theory that they remain interesting foes throughout that range.
Skills: Lurkers are masters of ambush and movement. As such, they have Level + 3 ranks in Acrobatics, Climb, Disguise, Jump, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth. While masters of ambush, lurkers are susceptible to ambush as well.
Feats: Lurkers are subtle opponents that rely upon speed and surprise, both in and out of combat. They gain the indicated feats at the indicated levels.
Damage: This column is the lurker’s attack-form damage bonus. It can represent knives, fangs, hand-crossbows, swords, claws, silenced pistols, mouth darts, cybernetic poison darts, acidic spit, eye lasers, or whatever other attack form suits your descriptors of the lurker.
Size: Lurkers can be any size, though medium is the most common. If applying size changes, do not adjust ability scores, combat bonuses, or toughness.
Abilities: Lurkers of the indicated levels have the indicated ability scores.
Traits: Additional traits can be added but keep in mind that they make the lurker even more challenging. As a guideline, give a lurker no more than one trait per four levels, though two weak traits may be substituted for one strong trait.
Some feats (Crippling Strike, Stunning Blow, etc) may also make appropriate traits, depending upon the lurker’s descriptors.

I tried to keep it generic enough to work for chokers, dacoits, or high-end cybernetic snipers. Thoughts?

Download update here.

[ValhallaGH]

Given the lack of comment on lurkers, I'm going to assume that I did them correctly and can move on to another role.

I'll get working on that soon, though much of my creative energies are tied up in my active gaming, so it may be a few more weeks.

[iwatt]

Sorry, I thought I had commented on it. Looks good. Like the simple feat selection. I'm already thinking of using one for a good old fashion Alien ripoff campaign.

[barsoomcore]

This is looking good, VGH.

Are there some standards we can set for swapping attributes around? Like you can increase Damage by 1 by decreasing BCB by 1. Or something.

[barsoomcore]

Also can we use a format that isn't .doc? I'd far rather read this in HTML. Just saying.

[ValhallaGH]

Also can we use a format that isn't .doc? I'd far rather read this in HTML. Just saying.

Sorry. The formatting has mostly been a matter of what's convenient for me to work with. I'll look into alternatives when I get the time to work in detail on this again.
Unfortunately, alternate formats mean investing my time and effort into finding formats and learning to use them well. However, if some impatient soul wanted to take that burden from me, I wouldn't object.

Are there some standards we can set for swapping attributes around? Like you can increase Damage by 1 by decreasing BCB by 1. Or something.

Not really. True 20 doesn't have anything resembling a predictable progression, given the variance from feat, power, skill, and equipment selection, so giving mostly accurate guidelines for adjustments is ... difficult at best.
That said, you've got a decent start.

[ValhallaGH]

Semi-update:

For those of you asking for a new format, this is a day to rejoice! I now provide the same stuff that was in the previous download in a shiny, new (and ugly) .pdf format.

It is available here.

I'll be updating the previous links in a few minutes.


As for the other roles, I really do intend to work on those. I'm just a bit stymied for inspiration and will, due to the other games I've got and the many complications of real life in a hard economy. Enjoy.

[tezrak]

Okay, so I scanned this thread and I'll admit, I'm interested. I'm trying to wrap my brain around it, so I'll be reading it in more detail (along with VGH's PDF document).

I still feel like for "intelligent" adversaries (or maybe, at least just the types of "monster races that might wind up as PCs), however, that PC roles should be used. I might get divested of this notion as I dive in more in-depth, but I'm not sure.

Is it just me, though, or does it seem like each monster role is going to have not only a role, but also a "path" (a la the Fantasy Paths and Freeport Companion supplements) -- a suggested progression that accounts for combat bonus, saves and feat/power choices from levels 1-20? They certainly are helpful, but they're a bit of a time sink to create (the paths, that is).

Anyhow, on with the reading.

[ValhallaGH]

And expanding the reading, I present my first crack at Artillery.

Artillery
Artillery is meant to present powerful ranged combatants. Unlike lurkers, artillery don’t focus on ambush; they’re good enough, and use terrain intelligently enough, that they can confront things head-on. Unlike skirmishers, artillery don’t have to stay on the move, although clever movement is important to their success and survival.
This role can represent master archers, range-focused highwaymen, powerful evokers, demon-fused wizards, or any other character that is a threat due to powerful, unending ranged attacks.
Level: Artillery of the indicated level is a good challenge for a party of about four heroes of that level. One-on-one, a lurker has a good chance of defeating a single hero, under optimal circumstances. Artillery is rated for levels 1 to 20, under the theory that they remain interesting foes throughout that range.
Skills: Artillery is accomplished at detecting and identifying targets, and proficient in the skills needed to move around. As such, they have Level + 3 ranks in Concentration, Knowledge (life sciences), and Notice, and Level ranks in Acrobatics, Climb, Jump, and Swim. Depending upon their style, they may have one or two additional skills (such as Knowledge [supernatural] or Survival).
Combat: Artillery has exceptional ranged combat skill. When making ranged attacks, or avoiding ranged attacks, use the first number listed. The second number is their Base Combat Bonus for melee attacks (including grapples).
Special: Artillery relies upon their own deadly skill, and the distance and obstacles between them and their targets, to defeat their foes. The listed feats and abilities should allow that to happen.

• Widen Attack: The artillery can widen their basic damage attack (as the Widen Power feat) the listed times per encounter. This may be fireball spells, micro grenades, a hail of arrows, or some other special variation on their normal attack.

Damage: This column is the artillery’s attack-form damage bonus. It can represent magic bolts, crossbows, rifles, longbows, laser rifles, grenade launchers, eye lasers, or whatever other attack form suits your descriptors of the artillery. Regardless, it has a range increment of 100 ft and 20/+4 critical.
Size: Artillery can be any size, though medium is the most common. If applying size changes, do not adjust ability scores, combat bonuses, or toughness.
Abilities: Artillery of the indicated levels has the indicated ability scores.
Traits: Additional traits can be added but keep in mind that they make the artillery even more challenging. As a guideline, give artillery no more than one trait per four levels, though two weak traits may be substituted for one strong trait. Some good traits can include the ability to move up vertical surfaces at normal speed, leap incredible distances, and similar abilities that help with repositioning.

PDF update. Suggestions and input, as always, are welcome.

[tezrak]

Are all the roles supposed to have a Toughness column? Or is it just for Brute? If that's the case, do you just follow the typical convention that Toughness = Con?

Also, just from a stylistic/format perspective, some of your tables say "Combat Bonus" as opposed to BCB, and "Feats" as opposed to "Special".

I'm gonna work up a 3rd-level Orc brute just to see how it works, and share the stat block with y'all.

[tezrak]

Orc Creature Background
Size: Medium
Speed: 30 ft.
Ability Adjustments: +2 Str, -1 Int, -1 Wis, -1 Cha
Traits: Darkvision 60 ft.

Orc, 3rd-level Brute
Creature Background: Orc
Size: Medium
Speed: 30 ft.
Abilities: Str +6, Dex +1, Con +3, Int -3, Wis +0, Cha -1
Skills: Climb 6 (+12), Intimidate 6 (+5), Jump 6 (+12), Notice 6 (+6)
Feats: None
Traits: Darkvision 60 ft.
Initiative: +1 (Dex +1)
Offense:
Atk +5 (Cbt +4, Dex +1) (desc. as "greataxe")
Dmg +7 (Role +1, Str +6)
Defense:
Dodge 15 (10 + Cbt 4 + Dex 1)
Parry 20 (10 + Cbt 4 + Str 6)
Saves:
Fort +6 (Role +3, Con +3)
Ref +3 (Role +2, Dex +1)
Will +1 (Role +1, Wis +0)
Tough +4 (Role +1, Con +3)

Edit: I originally included a "monstrous humanoid" type, but I guess you could just weave the traits that come from the "creature type" into the creature background, so I went ahead and did that.