Determining Level Lag

[Urbaman]

Hi,

I am thinking about using your work for my homebrew campaign.

Just for exercise sake, I tryed to re-calculate with your rules the Centaur example in the companion.

I only use True20Chick lavel-lag table, I think it's enough to do the work:
(LL stand for Level Lag)

CENTAUR (from the bestiary):
Size: Large = 0.5 LL
Levels: 4 = 1.33 LL
Abilities: ((4+2+2-1+1)-6)/8 = 0.25 LL
Speed: 50 ft. = 1 LL
Skills: 2+int = -0.25 LL
Feats: 3 bonus = 0,75 LL
Traits: 1 = 0.25 LL
Saves: 2 good = 0.25 LL
Natural Armour: +1, no LL
Total: 3.58 LL

Now we can use it as a 3 or 4 LL Character (4 or 5 level with 1 hero level), depending on the approximation we use on the .58 decimals.

We could also divide the abilities/feats/traits/saves... from the entry in the bestiary into 3 or 4 (4 is used in the Companion) levels (again, it depends on the approximation used for decimals) to create the RACE levels (not creature levels anymore) to go through before acquiring the first Hero level.

Easy and enough for me... without going into pricing each and every monster type for class sake. Put it all into level lag and modulate your SINGLE RACE LEVELS if you want to.
Keep in mind taht going up and down in creature levels will never be balanced, as creature types are not balanced, and not ment to.
Types who can advance in Hero Levels are suitable for Hero creation, the others are not (much like ordinaries, not balanced to heroes).

I thing I will stick with this.

[iwatt]

OK, in theMonster Roles thread, we came to the conclusion of using Base Roles plus backgrounds for Monster generation. This will allow a unified PC/NPC generation, the ability to create monstrous PCs, and also a way to accurately gauge NPC power levels.

The idea is that all Roles are created equal (War, Exp, Adp + custom roles), and all we need is away to balance traits, abilities and others. This started with True20chick's awesome first post, and I've been adjusting it based to the Fantasy Chapter of the Companion, were it prices traits, abilities and feats.

Given the above, I have come up with the following initial document. As I convert more and more critters, I hope to continue to complete it. Please comment on any traits you think are too highly priced, or too cheap. It's an art form, not a science.

[aravol]

One problem I'm seeing here with using monster leve lag, though, is that the simplicity of monsters having a single level rather than the HD/CR method would be lost.

I would suggest that monsters have some way of gaining background points without level lag, such as by giving up feats or skills.

[ValhallaGH]

One problem I'm seeing here with using monster leve lag, though, is that the simplicity of monsters having a single level rather than the HD/CR method would be lost.

A notable point.

I would suggest that monsters have some way of gaining background points without level lag, such as by giving up feats or skills.

... that's mean, man.
Not only are traits supposed to be accurately costed to level lag. Not level lag is supposed to be accurately costed to feats and skills?

[ValhallaGH]

Given the above, I have come up with the following initial document. As I convert more and more critters, I hope to continue to complete it. Please comment on any traits you think are too highly priced, or too cheap. It's an art form, not a science.

What does each +1 mean? Because if it's +1 level lag then everything is over-priced. If it is +1 background point from the background creation rules then it looks alright.

[iwatt]

Sorry, ina all the excitement I forgot the obvious. These are based on the Alien Backgrounds in the SF chapter, where each Level Lag is 7 points.

So a background has the basics specified in the Core rules, and any additional stuff has to be priced according to this table.

One problem I'm seeing here with using monster leve lag, though, is that the simplicity of monsters having a single level rather than the HD/CR method would be lost.

I always found the HD system complicated. This is different, but simple. If you want creatures with less skill points, make a custom role.

[iwatt]

I cleaned up the link some more.

[ValhallaGH]

I like it. That may not be very helpful, but I still like it.

[iwatt]

So I wrote a huge post, using the Stone Giant as an example. It was lost

The Highlights:

Level Lag: +3, but I reduced the Bonus feats solely to Night-Vision, and did not give them either favored feats or favored powers, nor bonus skills. I priced Rock throwing at 3 points, cause it's got huge range, very high damage. Could probably have gone even higher. The result was actually 3,27 or near enough.

Giant Role: Fast Combat, 2+Int, 1 Good, 2 medium*

* This combo doesn't exist in the roles, but I figured it was good enough.

The results, using a Giant 9 was:

Combat: 1 point less
Skills: max ranks were 5 lower
Saves: Fort 3 pts lower, Reflex and Will the same
Feats: 4 extra feats from the Role

Now, for skills, I actually think it's a feature, because the Giant's in the Bestiary have humongous skill bonuses, specially for Notice, that has cause me a lot of trouble in my games. PCs can't consistently compete against a +18 modifier except through heavy Conviction use.

The extra feats allowed me to shore up the stat differences. Doge and Parry Focus, Great Fortitude and Attack Focus, led to almost identical combat stats. (One of the attacks is slightly lower, I would reccomend it be the ranged one).

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

...I have come up with the following initial document. As I convert more and more critters, I hope to continue to complete it. Please comment on any traits you think are too highly priced, or too cheap. It's an art form, not a science.

What would be really good is if someone went through these and first made a list of all the traits that are equivalent to a feat, and then somehow broke the higher-costing ones down so that each point of them costed a feat. Then instead of having to pay for powerful traits at the start and dealing with level-lag you could take levels in a monster class and gain the powerful traits via feat choices.

[elf23]

am i right in thinking that monsters will now get 1 feat per level, the same as heroes, as they'll be created / advancing using exactly the same roles?

i really like the idea that you can guarantee that a monster with, say, a background equivalent to a human (level lag 0), plus 4 levels of warrior is a good match for a 4th level hero.

i also really like the idea of having stats / definitions of the "basic" level of a creature, which can then be augmented by adding role levels.

i've been thinking about this a bit, and it seems like there might actually be *three* steps:
1: racial background - an ordinary human
2: role background - a 1st level hero
3: role levels - 2nd level and on

the line of thought there is that you get *a lot* more for your first hero level than at subsequent levels. 4 feats, loads of skill points, +6 ability points (which i'd say isn't part of the racial background - that's part of your "heroicness"), +2 to a save, and so on.

how much more powerful is a 1st level hero compared to a "basic" human with no role levels? is it possible, or necessary, to quantify this?

[iwatt]

The differences between an ordinary and a 0 level lag hero are:

Warrior: +6 ability pts, +1 Combat, +2 Fort, 4 feats, Core Ability
Expert: +6 ability pts, +16 skill pts, +2 to one save, 4 feats, Core Ability
Adept: +6 ability pts, Access to Powers, +2 Will, 4 feats, Core Ability

[jaerdaph]

I've been following this thread for awhile now and I want to say many thanks to True20Chick for starting this and to iwatt for picking up the ball and really running with it! I'm at a point where I'm working on something where I can use this, but I had a couple of clarification questions.

If I'm interpreting this right, I think there are *two* approaches to calculating Level Lag (LL) here - the first is a "point buy" demonstrated with examples within this thread that takes the values/weight of a level in a creature type (or creature "role") into account when calculating LL, and the second is iwatt's intial document that is based more on what was in the Companion (and now True20 Revised edition) under Designing Alien Backgrounds and uses the formula LL = round[(Sum of Background points - 5)/7] which (I believe) eliminates the need to use the calculated values/weights for creature type levels when calculating LL. In short, if I am using iwatt's system, I would only need what's on his Web site to make the calculation. Am I correct in that assumption?

If the later is indeed the case, I have another question about using iwatt's intial document when calculating the LL of a template (before it is applied to a creature or character). I believe the process and formula would be the same, except you wouldn't subtract 5 (representing basic background from the sum of the background points) before dividing by 7 because this is only a template added to an existing creature. Is that correct, and/or are there any other considerations I need to take into account?

Finally, do I need to apply any negative point values for any weaknesses and vulnerabilities when calculating LL using iwatt's system? Obviously there are many Traits that haven't been quantified yet with points I would need to quantify, and I'm assuming weaknesses/vulnerabilites fit in this category.

What I'd like to do is create an apparition template that uses some of the ghost's traits and some of the spectre's traits.

[iwatt]

In short, if I am using iwatt's system, I would only need what's on his Web site to make the calculation. Am I correct in that assumption?

You need to eyeball the trait pricing yourself. In some campaigns some traits are going to be moer powerful than others.

If the later is indeed the case, I have another question about using iwatt's intial document when calculating the LL of a template (before it is applied to a creature or character). I believe the process and formula would be the same, except you wouldn't subtract 5 (representing basic background from the sum of the background points) before dividing by 7 because this is only a template added to an existing creature.

That is correct. For templates you don't substract the base background cost. If you're going to mix a custom background with a custom template, i would reccomend not rounding off the decimal pts first though. i.e if the custom role gives a level lag of 0.25 and the the template a level lag of 1,4, the total level lag would be 1,64, which probably should be 2 and not the +1 if each calculation was rounded down.

Finally, do I need to apply any negative point values for any weaknesses and vulnerabilities when calculating LL using iwatt's system? Obviously there are many Traits that haven't been quantified yet with points I would need to quantify, and I'm assuming weaknesses/vulnerabilites fit in this category.

Yeah, I'd price some negative traits. Not sure what value i'd give it though.

The idea here is to use roles and templates and backgrounds to create monsters, for those who want a method to create balanced critters. For example, I converted the Black Monk from the RoTRL 4th chapter, using the following:

Dread Mummy
Natural Armor: The Dread Mummy gains a +4 Natural Armor Bonus

Attack: The dread mummy retains all the base creature’s attacks, and its weapon and armor proficiencies. These attacks retain the same primary or secondary status they had for the base creature. The dread mummy gains a primary slam attack if it has no other natural attacks.

Damage: If the dread mummy gained a slam attack from the application of this template, the base damage is as given on the following table.

Small +1
Medium +2
Large +3
Huge +4
Gargantuan +5
Collosal +6

Special Attacks: The dread mummy retains all the base creature’s special attacks andd qualities and gains those described here.
Breath of Death: Once every 2 rounds, a dread mummy can breathe a 30-foot cone of tomb gas, sand, and dust. Each living creature in the area must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 dread mummy’s character level + dread mummy’s Cha modifier) or gain a level of fatigue.
Command Undead: As a free action, a dread mummy can automatically command all normal undead within 30 feet, except those with more character levels or higher Charisma scores than the dread mummy. Undead that fit these parameters never attack a dread mummy unless compelled.
Create Spawn: Any creature killed by a dread mummy’s mummy rot ability turns to dust and blows away on the wind. If the dread mummy that infected the creature with the disease is not destroyed within 1 week, the dust reforms next to it as a new dread mummy. A dread mummy created in this manner is under the command of its creator and remains so until either it or the creator is destroyed.
Gaze of Despair: Any creature within 100 feet of a dread mummy that meets its gaze must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 dread mummy’s character level + dread mummy’s Cha modifier) or be paralyzed for 2 rounds. Gaze of despair is a fear effect.
Mummy Rot: A creature hit by a mummy’s natural attack must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 dread mummy’s character level + dread mummy’s Cha modifier) or contract mummy rot. This disease has an incubation period of 1 minute, and it deals 2 points of Constitution damage and 2 points of Charisma damage with each failed save. Mummy rot is a powerful curse, not a natural disease. A character attempting to cast a Cure (Cha), or Cure Poison (Con) Power on a creature afflicted with mummy rot must increase the DC by 10, or the power has no effect on that creature. Before applying the Cure Powers, the curse must be broken by passing a bless power check (DC 20 + 1/2 dread mummy’s character level + dread mummy’s Cha modifier). A creature killed by a dread mummy’s mummy rot turns to dust and blows away on the first gust of air unless both Cure Disease and Imbue Life are cast on the remains within 6 rounds.
Powers: Summon Vermin, Cold Shaping
Damage Reduction: A dread mummy has damage reduction 2/—.
Darkvision 60'
Vulnerable to Fire: Such a creature takes half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from the effect, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure.
Resistance to Cold: A dread mummy has cold resistance 4.
Turning Resistance: A Dread Mummy gains a +2 bonus to Will saves made to resist the Warding effects of Purifying Light.

Abilities: Change from the base creature as follows: Str +7, Dex +2, Int +1, Wis +2, Cha +2. As an undead creature, a dread mummy has no Constitution score.

Level Lag: +5

and the stat block:

Black Monk
Medium Human Undead Dread Mummy Martial Artist 8
Init: +8; Senses: Notice +16, Darkvision 60'
Defenses: dodge 27 (31), parry 26 (30), flat-footed 18 (22)
CMD 26; FD 29
Toughness: +8 (4) DR 2
Resistance Cold +4 Vulnerability Fire
Fortitude: +5; Reflex: +10; Will: +13
Conviction:
Move: 5 ft, Fly 60' (Perfect)
Melee: Unarmed +12; Dmg +10 + Mummy Rot
Melee: Unarmed +12/+12; Dmg +10/+10 + Mummy Rot
Base Combat Bonus: +8; CMB: +16 (+18 to trip)
Attack Options: Deflect Arrows, Stunning Attack, Leg Sweep CMB+2
Special Gaze of Despair DC 17, Breath of Death DC 17
Abilities: Str +8, Dex +4, Con—, Int +1, Wis +5, Cha +3
Skills: Acrobatics 11 (+15), Notice 11 (+16), Stealth 11 (+15), Sense Motive 11 (+19), Knowledge (Religion) 11 (+12)
Feats: Canny Dodge (Wis), Iron Will, Skill Focus (Sense Motive), Tough, Improved Strike, Evasion, Deflect Arrows, Stunning Attack, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Two Weapon Fighting, Ambidexterity
Powers (rank 11, Cha, Save Difficulty 17, Summon Vermin +14, Wind Shaping +14
Traits: Damage Reduction 2/—, Darkvision 60 ft., Gaze of Despair, Mummy Rot, Undead Traits, Vulnerable to Fire, Resist Cold 4, Fly, Natural Armor 4, Unholy Fortitude, Breath of Death, Powers.

[jaerdaph]

Thank you very much for your time and clarifications, iwatt. The dread mummy template is an added bonus as well!

I'm going to start putting together the Apparition template I want to use. I'll post it here along with the process for coming up with the level lag and hopefully folks will give me some insight on the values I pick for traits and weaknesses.