I'm a little bit sad about the True20 products -___-

[Lord Lance]

Finally i write this post. It's a lot of time i want to do it.

Well, i like True20 a lot, but i hate all that inconsistence between the products. With the first "sourcebooks" inside the main book i can close an eye, but i really don't like the idea that important expansion handbooks like Expert's and Adept's was created from different people, with very low (or non existent) supervision of the creator/s of the Core System.
Take all the various core book with ambientations, companion, bestiary, Adept's, Expert's, Freeport... Same feats / different rules, Same weapons / different stats (between base products and these ones)
I know, i should discuss deeply my thought, but i have few time to do that, and i would to post a lot of new requests of errata and clarifications about the Adept Handbook that i found while reading the powers (as soon as possible...), and soon i want to post my though about the weapons (specific about the archaic ones in the companion, because i play a lot with fantasy worlds).

I know that there is a very good support in the forum, and i want to thank the various authors and the other people around, but books (or PDFs) with a lot of notes, errata, clarifications, are not the best way to play. First of all, every time i read a new sourcebook i have the unpleasant idea that "i'll have a lot of work before i can use the material inside", and i don't like this feeling: and please, don't tell "these are guidelines, you have to adapt to your style", because i buy a system, so i want consistent rules and mechanics; this is not a problem of moulding the system to adapt it to my taste, but reading ad re-reading to find "cracks".

Of course, i'd like to hear the feelings of the other GMs or players living here.

PS. I'm not angry - don't missunderstand this post - i'm just a little sad and exhaust to use days of my life to "square the circle" (and some time i like this, i have to admit... some time! ;P )

As usual, sorry for my poor English. I'm sad even for my limited possibility to explain my ideas on this forum... -___-

[Jeric Hikari]

Its an understandable complaint. These are OFFICIAL products from Green Ronin. One would believe they'd go out of their way to make sure that hteir own products line up and 'play nice' with eachother with a minimum of finnageling.


Then again I'm pulling my materials and groups together using only the core + companion(which's now I guess lumped togethr into one core book). So I kinda missed it all(and regret nothing, as DnD has taught me to AVOID the glut of supplement books).

[Razuur]

Well I have never yet met a RPG that maintained 100% consistency.

Facts are that True20 is a smaller rpg out there. I think True20's official releases have been pretty consistent. They may not be everyones cup of tea, but thems the breaks.

The other fact is that True20 is a wide open system for any/all genres. It is impossible to maintain a consistency for all genres. There are many ways that any single concept could be handled. Magic for instance could be entirely different if one is running a fantasy or a modern. Different applications from different books are going to look different.

True20 takes the toolkit approach, providing a lot of options. We pick and choose the stuff that works the best for our campaigns.

For my fantasy world, there wasn't that much in the Expert's handbook for me. But the Adepts book was almost 100% applicable. If I ever run a modern horror, I can see the exact opposite may be true.

Toolkit.

Now I just wish they would release genre specific sourcebooks filled with options. That would be very useful to me - to have it all in one place ala Fantasy hero - like Fantasy True20, Space True20, Horror True20.

But that is a dream. maybe with the new development coming someone will do this!

Patrick

[~HANZO~]

Personally I don't see inconsistencies, I see options. Maybe its written differently in another book. That gives you an option to go either way with it.

Id be happy with more than one adept book with different rules and options. To me every book is just one more source for materials for my games. Because not every subsystem works for every setting. For instance sanity, two different books may handle sanity in a horror setting different than another. All options.

Personally I know firearms pretty well and often go with what ever version fits my own Ideas. And like expanded lists by name while some one else might like the more generic listing of light or heavy pistol.

[committed hero]

Any open rule system will have the same problem. D20 itself has 20x the options with no way to balance between different publishers.

[Y.O.Morales]

Well, I have to agree with Lord Lance on several things. While I understand that True20 is taking the approach of the toolkit (so that there are many options that do not match with others or that do not use the same rules as others), I have to say that True20 needs a bit more editing and streamlining.

The amount of Errata and Clarifications that keeps being added every week/month really makes me sad about it. The rules for Powers vary so much: some are resisted with an opposed power check while others with a save of a Difficulty equal to your power check or your adept level, and the effects are determined by your levels, by your power ranks, by a certain amount past a threshold, or according to a table.

I think that what I mentioned above, plus the damage system, are the parts that Green Ronin could address the most in the 2nd printing.

Now I just wish they would release genre specific sourcebooks filled with options. That would be very useful to me - to have it all in one place ala Fantasy hero - like Fantasy True20, Space True20, Horror True20.

This is precisely what I want mostly (Highmoon Media is already doing True20 Ancients). My apologies for everyone who's planning to publish settings, but I believe that what most players are doing is translating some setting they already own/know to the True20 rules, so they are looking for material that would help them do less work, not another post-big-catastrophe world with elves, dwarves, and a new race to vary things a little. Genre-specific books fill that need and they still continue with the toolkit paradigm.

But anyways, this last comment was slightly off-topic. Back with Lord Lance's.

[MdavidJ]

This is precisely what I want mostly (Highmoon Media is already doing True20 Ancients). My apologies for everyone who's planning to publish settings, but I believe that what most players are doing is translating some setting they already own/know to the True20 rules, so they are looking for material that would help them do less work, not another post-big-catastrophe world with elves, dwarves, and a new race to vary things a little. Genre-specific books fill that need and they still continue with the toolkit paradigm.

But anyways, this last comment was slightly off-topic. Back with Lord Lance's.

Vehicles is the first of our (RDP's) True20 products which will be presented in a "Toolkit" approach. Matt Kaiser and I have been kicking around some ideas that I want to fully explore when he has a bit more time on his hands.

Reign of Discordia, Interface Zero and Land of the Crane are just too good not to get out there. Nevermore is just awesome and I hope The guys over at Expeditious Retreat Press continue to put out material for it. Agents of Oblivion.. GAWD I want more of this setting SOOO badly, and RUNEPUNK! Hurry Sean and Erica.. puh-leeeze

As for the "Post-catastrophe setting" *wink.* Dunno what to tell ya there. I was lucky enough to be picked and I'll continue to support it.

I realize alot of the stuff I've gearing up to put out is niche in one way or the other, but there are a bunch of things that can/will be mined for use in other settings. Once my core books are in place, we'll be supporting them, but as I said before, we're also looking into putting out more Toolkits as well.

[Lord Lance]

Well, actually my sadness composition is:

30% inconsistencies - no big problem, i choose "my way", just need to dodge the possible black hole of some feat combination and similar occurencies...
70% feeling that material is not so playtested before the publication, so a "careful" master has a lot of revision work ahead, and a lot of super-patched, post-ited, penciled manuals.

[GothamGamemaster]

Now I just wish they would release genre specific sourcebooks filled with options. That would be very useful to me - to have it all in one place ala Fantasy hero - like Fantasy True20, Space True20, Horror True20.

As a GM who has eyed True20 warily on his bookshelf, I'd say that themed supplements like those would go a long way to enticing me to run the game. Right now, I'm confused by the nomenclature and the "scattered" feel of GR's existing supplements (and I've read the descriptions but I still feel lost).

[Razuur]

I realize alot of the stuff I've gearing up to put out is niche in one way or the other, but there are a bunch of things that can/will be mined for use in other settings. Once my core books are in place, we'll be supporting them, but as I said before, we're also looking into putting out more Toolkits as well.

Don't sell yourself short here. I mined your blood throne setting for some rules as well as setting pieces. The Rules for Mana Shards mimiced a need I had for my world. And I brought in the Bone shaman and Bone fetishes into my world too...

Honestly I want both fluff setting material with rules that fit the setting and Toolkit sourcebooks. Blood Throne defintely has both fluff and toolkit, and while a lot of it did not apply to my world - I defintely pulled some of it in!

Really looking forward to your vehicle book.

[MdavidJ]

I realize alot of the stuff I've gearing up to put out is niche in one way or the other, but there are a bunch of things that can/will be mined for use in other settings. Once my core books are in place, we'll be supporting them, but as I said before, we're also looking into putting out more Toolkits as well.

Don't sell yourself short here. I mined your blood throne setting for some rules as well as setting pieces. The Rules for Mana Shards mimiced a need I had for my world. And I brought in the Bone shaman and Bone fetishes into my world too...

Honestly I want both fluff setting material with rules that fit the setting and Toolkit sourcebooks. Blood Throne defintely has both fluff and toolkit, and while a lot of it did not apply to my world - I defintely pulled some of it in!

Really looking forward to your vehicle book.

Well Thanks!

I'm really happy that you liked and were able to use the material to enhance your game!

[Y.O.Morales]

The Rules for Mana Shards mimiced a need I had for my world. And I brought in the Bone shaman and Bone fetishes into my world too...

Honestly I want both fluff setting material with rules that fit the setting and Toolkit sourcebooks. Blood Throne defintely has both fluff and toolkit, and while a lot of it did not apply to my world - I defintely pulled some of it in!

This is precisely the reason for why I think that genre-specific books are good. As another example, I want to buy Interface Zero to see what things I can add to a Shadowrun campaign. But dedicating whole books to portable rules like Cybernetics, Virtual Reality, and Starships (or rules for plane traveling, steampunk machines, etc.) would be better since there will be more pages dedicated to them and perhaps it would even sell more.

And my apologies, MdavidJ, if my previous comment was too cynic and harsh on settings like Blood Throne (plus others that have been announced in this forum). I do agree that settings like Nevermore are good (and perhaps Reign of Discordia will be too), but it's just that with the d20 movement, many people pushed settings that were very alike.

Heh, I have to admit that I fear that True20 would become d20. I already like this system too much.

[Darrin Drader]

This is precisely the reason for why I think that genre-specific books are good.

RDP is doing a generic book on vehicles which suits multiple genres.

And my apologies, MdavidJ, if my previous comment was too cynic and harsh on settings like Blood Throne (plus others that have been announced in this forum). I do agree that settings like Nevermore are good (and perhaps Reign of Discordia will be too), but it's just that with the d20 movement, many people pushed settings that were very alike.

The reason I pitched Reign of Discordia and the reason RDP Greenlit it is because there really isn't a setting like this for True20 at this point in time. Sure, you can always port something in from elsewhere, and it might even be good, but I do think that it is a show of support for the rules system to come up with unique settings that are exclusively for that system.

A couple examples outside of the RPG field are the multitude of Mario games and Mass Effect (nevermind the fact that they're now releasing it for the PC about a year after it comes out). These are properties that are popular with gamers, and you can only find them on one type of game console. This in turn drives sales for that console, so its good for the publisher, its good for the console, and its good for the fans who get something fun to play around with. Will RoD be popular enough to push sales of the core rules? I don't know. I do know that a few people I've told about the setting have bought True20 because of it, but on a larger scale, that part is out of my hands and entirely in yours. If people like it then they will start buzzing about it, and then people will buy into True20. I guarantee you that it will be good for all of us because it will bring players to True20 which will in turn merit more support for the system.

Generic rules supplements keep the existing players happy, but they don't actually bring in new players like settings have the potential to do.

[MdavidJ]

The Rules for Mana Shards mimiced a need I had for my world. And I brought in the Bone shaman and Bone fetishes into my world too...

Honestly I want both fluff setting material with rules that fit the setting and Toolkit sourcebooks. Blood Throne defintely has both fluff and toolkit, and while a lot of it did not apply to my world - I defintely pulled some of it in!

This is precisely the reason for why I think that genre-specific books are good. As another example, I want to buy Interface Zero to see what things I can add to a Shadowrun campaign. But dedicating whole books to portable rules like Cybernetics, Virtual Reality, and Starships (or rules for plane traveling, steampunk machines, etc.) would be better since there will be more pages dedicated to them and perhaps it would even sell more.

And my apologies, MdavidJ, if my previous comment was too cynic and harsh on settings like Blood Throne (plus others that have been announced in this forum). I do agree that settings like Nevermore are good (and perhaps Reign of Discordia will be too), but it's just that with the d20 movement, many people pushed settings that were very alike.

Heh, I have to admit that I fear that True20 would become d20. I already like this system too much.

It's all good man. I'm not mad or anything

People want what they want, and I certainly respect that.

I know I put out good products, and will continue to do so.

[curseofyig]

I have to agree with Lord Lance also. I'm disappointed to see that only the core book is penned by Steve Kenson and I believe it shows in the work. We've ended up with a few essential rulebooks that I feel dont' share the spirit of the original. Even if they are good works on their own.

My general gripes are
a) I don't want to be flipping through 3+ differrent books looking at hundreds of feats(many of which now are similiar, or the same feat repeating with slight buffed features)
b) Vast majority of character concepts can be built simply by mixing the three Roles. The addition of "Build a role" and the proliferation of new roles built with this template in the books seems to me to be stealing the thunder of the ingenious "3 roles to rule them all" idea.

This game started lean and mean but its on the road to becoming fat and redundant.