No restriction on undead power use?

[barsoomcore]

So undead are immune to fatigue, right?

That means a vampire with, say, Elemental Blast, is basically a fire-breathing machine gun that never runs out of ammo. It never suffers fatigue and so can just keep unloading without any consequence.

That's cool.

[ValhallaGH]

Liches are much the same.

[Ordinaryguy Mk. II]

Stands to reason they're self sustaining(sort of) immortals that never tire. Only a balance issue if the pc's are able to play undead (unless that's a campaign norm).

Same with constructs too.

[Grail]

Outsiders are "Self sustaining Immortals" but they are subject to fatigue. This is obviously one area where the fatigue/power rule falls down. Trying to say it's cool is pretty poor, it's a design flaw (whether intentional or no).

Undead should still roll Fatigue Saves for power use IMO. They should still record on the track, but instead of suffering fatigue as normal, they simply suffer the affects for Power Use. (It's a mental drain thing). When they reach Unconscious, they instead can no longer manipulate magic until they mentally recuperate from the strain of using magic.

[ValhallaGH]

Undead should still roll Fatigue Saves for power use IMO. They should still record on the track, but instead of suffering fatigue as normal, they simply suffer the affects for Power Use. (It's a mental drain thing). When they reach Unconscious, they instead can no longer manipulate magic until they mentally recuperate from the strain of using magic.

A pretty interesting interpretation. Mechanically, I like it, since it provides a large advantage for undead casters without giving them endless power.

Sometimes, though, you want a mage with endless power.

[iwatt]

Sometimes, though, you want a mage with endless power.

Empowered, quickened, chained Elemental Blasts.

Which reminds me we need to stat Zykon in True20

[bryan.mullins]

Outsiders are "Self sustaining Immortals" but they are subject to fatigue. This is obviously one area where the fatigue/power rule falls down. Trying to say it's cool is pretty poor, it's a design flaw (whether intentional or no).

Undead should still roll Fatigue Saves for power use IMO. They should still record on the track, but instead of suffering fatigue as normal, they simply suffer the affects for Power Use. (It's a mental drain thing). When they reach Unconscious, they instead can no longer manipulate magic until they mentally recuperate from the strain of using magic.

That seems to be a more consistent way to handle it in True20, not to mention sensible. Any caster that doesn't want to make fatigue needs a feat or something...right?

>WBM

[ValhallaGH]

Sometimes, though, you want a mage with endless power.

Empowered, quickened, chained Elemental Blasts.

Only when appropriate.
Which is rare.

[barsoomcore]

Outsiders are "Self sustaining Immortals" but they are subject to fatigue.

Well, you can change the rules to make that so, but it says in the rules I have quite specifically that undead are immune to fatigue:

Under the entry for Undead in both the True20 Handbook and the True20 Bestiary:

"Immune to damage to its physical abilities (Strength, Dexterity and Constitution) as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects."

As far as I can see, you're just making up the idea that they are subject to fatigue.

If you like things better that way, that's great, but you are clearly changing the existing rules.

Trying to say it's cool is pretty poor, it's a design flaw (whether intentional or no).

Trying to tell me what I think is also pretty poor.

I DO think it's cool. My previous d20 campaign was designed exactly the same way -- to make it very attractive for sorcerers to make themselves undead. There's no reason to consider this a flaw.

I also agree that it might be an oversight in the rules, and perhaps not what was intended. But I take exception to your first of all saying that the rules do not say this, and second of all to you dictating my opinion to me. This conversation will be much more interesting if you stick to announcing your opinion, and refrain from telling me my own.

[Grail]

Well, you can change the rules to make that so, but it says in the rules I have quite specifically that undead are immune to fatigue:

Under the entry for Undead in both the True20 Handbook and the True20 Bestiary:

"Immune to damage to its physical abilities (Strength, Dexterity and Constitution) as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects."

As far as I can see, you're just making up the idea that they are subject to fatigue.

FFS..... am I taking crazy pills? Seriously, am I? Where did I say that Undead are subject to fatigue?

If you like things better that way, that's great, but you are clearly changing the existing rules.

Go back, reread what I wrote and then have a whine to me.

I also agree that it might be an oversight in the rules, and perhaps not what was intended. But I take exception to your first of all saying that the rules do not say this

If you're going to take umbrage at what I wrote, maybe you should actually read it first, rather than just glancing at it? Hmmm?

[barsoomcore]

Where did I say that Undead are subject to fatigue?

You didn't. You said OUTSIDERS are subject to fatigue.

Oh, wait...

Damn.

If you're going to take umbrage at what I wrote, maybe you should actually read it first, rather than just glancing at it? Hmmm?

Oh, sure, like THAT makes sense. Next you'll be insisting that I pay attention to the rules, too. Whatever, dude.

Heh.

Sorry about that. That was me. Sorry, everyone. Nothing to see here, just move along...

[Ordinaryguy Mk. II]

I think this thread just invented the the new "is animating undead an evil act?"

To this end, I give the same solution. If it works for your game, undead and constructs can use powers without fatigue. If they're power for any reason needs to be finite, have them make checks like everyone else.

Personally in own game, they won't be making any checks making them all the more horrific.
Given the way powers work in my game(casters acting as a conduit between other planes of existence) it just makes sense.

Of course in light of the fact corruption rules exist in my game, should undead and constructs still have to make them?

[Grail]

My only problem with that, from both a balance and thematic rationale, (and why Undead won't be immune to the effects), is that why should Undead be effectively more powerful adepts than Dragons, or Outsiders, or Fey. IMO, it makes more sense for those creature types to be more powerful magically than Undead. Wizards become liches as an easy way to extend their lives and make themselves effectively immortal, not because it should suddenly make spellcasting easier.

[calibur1]

In the modern horror game that I ran undead adepts never were an issue. Combats just didn't last that long. If the PC's are undead adepts, then I would still subject them to taking fatigue from magic. I would explain it as being a drain on their negative energy. But undead PC's, regardless of role (or class), are always a pain to handle anyway. That is one of the inherent drawbacks of the D20 SRD. Non-living races aren't handled very well as they are in other systems.

[ValhallaGH]

My only problem with that, from both a balance and thematic rationale, (and why Undead won't be immune to the effects), is that why should Undead be effectively more powerful adepts than Dragons, or Outsiders, or Fey. IMO, it makes more sense for those creature types to be more powerful magically than Undead. Wizards become liches as an easy way to extend their lives and make themselves effectively immortal, not because it should suddenly make spellcasting easier.

And if that's what you want then your proposed solution is a good one.


Me, I wanted a lich to be more than a wizard with a larger hit die, immunity to critical hits, and really, really ugly facial features. True20 did that automatically, so I consider it a feature. Obviously it's not a feature for everyone. Which is why we bounce ideas off each other, to get the game to run the way we want it to.