Running True20 instead of Dnd

[PhelanMahoney]

I'm going to be running True20 soon I hope in place of D&D. WotC is beginning to anger me. With the books I have right now I can run True20 as D&D light. In fact I think I prefer the powers system of True20's Adepts to the spells of D&D. It allows for flexibility and more creativity that helps simulate spellcasters from books and movies that D&D is supposed to simulate in the first place.

[fellwalker]

Doesn't the Companion HAVE rules for domains and making themed magical traditions...actually, I know it does for I own such and I think that True20 would make a great platform for a D&D type game. The magic system in T20 is flexible but can knock your adept outta the play with fatigue BUT what if you used ideas in the Companion to develop "safe" rote spells that offer a fatigue save bonus for narrowing of flexibility? So a wizard-type adept COULD just freeform a fire effect as normal or follow the quick ritual and buffer the fatigue cost in exchange for limited effect or even got all out for a full ritual with all the bells and whistles and put some omph into a spell after a chunk of time, some expensive components, and maybe a hapless sacrifice or some drained accomplices.

A fantasy genre is something I wanna do...like Scarred Lands maybe

[ACodispo]

The magic system in T20 is flexible but can knock your adept outta the play with fatigue BUT what if you used ideas in the Companion to develop "safe" rote spells that offer a fatigue save bonus for narrowing of flexibility? So a wizard-type adept COULD just freeform a fire effect as normal or follow the quick ritual and buffer the fatigue cost in exchange for limited effect or even got all out for a full ritual with all the bells and whistles and put some omph into a spell after a chunk of time, some expensive components, and maybe a hapless sacrifice or some drained accomplices.

Is this the True20 or Blue Rose Companion that you are speaking of? Just curious.

[PhelanMahoney]

The way things are set up, there probably is a way to do fireballs and lightning bolts. Although I keep looking for a power to do force effects like a magic missile spell.

[barsoomcore]

The way things are set up, there probably is a way to do fireballs and lightning bolts. Although I keep looking for a power to do force effects like a magic missile spell.

Shrug.

Assume "Force" is an elemental power like Fire or Cold or whatever and you're there.

[PhelanMahoney]

true it can be considered an element, I just wonder if it's been officially done yet. I'll look over Freeport again as I think they might have put it in there.

[fellwalker]

The True20 Companion ACodispo

[calibur1]

I'm going to be running True20 soon I hope in place of D&D. WotC is beginning to anger me. With the books I have right now I can run True20 as D&D light. In fact I think I prefer the powers system of True20's Adepts to the spells of D&D. It allows for flexibility and more creativity that helps simulate spellcasters from books and movies that D&D is supposed to simulate in the first place.

Good luck. I was finally able to move on from D&D to True20 via Blue Rose. It was tough at first. I ran into a lot of self-made pitfalls, because I couldn't get out of the D&D mindset. Once me and my players were willing to let go, we found the True20 system to be much much better and more fun to play.

[Sean-Khan]

I've now run one and half sessions of DnD'ish Ptolus game with True20, and it has worked fine so far - but there's really much still to be tested. Powers work well like they are, and some of them actually remind me of David Edding's Belgarion -books. The thing I'm most concerned right now is 1st level wizard having teleport... I'll have to check if it messes with some of the adventures and will have to ask the player to change it if it would spoil something and add the power a level prerequisite.

I'm also a bit concerned how the power level will go, but conviction is actually quite nice way of balancing things on the fly. If players seem to be too strong for an encounter, an opponent changed to semi-heroic would work well (give them a bit conviction but not full amount). Also, rewarding of experience might be necessary. (Yes, using hard currency and XP)

[stevepro666]

Personally I created a couple of Hindrances to make DnD clerics, Mages, Bards. The hinderence means the PC can take a power but gets limitations.

Wizard
The Wizard Hindrance means the caster must Keep his known spells in his spell book and study the book each day. He must also know spells to cast using the ADEPT CORE ability.
The Wizard also uses Vocal and Somatic activities when casting his spells( Base DC 10 Listen and Spot Checks( Modified by situation e.g noise of combat, stood behind another person etc).
He does gain the Power Cantrips( Gives a large branch of simple\ non combat spells such as Mending,Detect Magic, Mage hand, ingite(as lighter) ).

Cleric
The Cleric Hindrance means that to call on his powers he needs to use Vocal prayers( Listen base, DC 10) and be grasping his Holy Symbol.
He also needs to have prayed for 1 hour at a time determined by his faith.
Gains can stabilize an injured\dying person by praying touching them and spending a conviction point. Gain one Divine Aspect Pg 33 T20 Companion. Gains either Cure or Harm Power.

Bard
The Bard Hindrance means that to call on his powers he needs to use a song\story and have written stories to put the powers through. He must also be playing an instrument and singing( Listen Base DC 15).
He does however gain the Power Cantrips( detailed below).

Strict Code
The Strict Code Hindrance means that to retain the benefit given by the Hindrance the Character must adhere to a strict code of conduct, aiding the weak, defeating oppression, destroying evil as set by GM.
He can take the Paladin feat.

To make a priest more combative he needs to limit himself to 12 Powers and bring his BAB to same as expert.
I also added the Strict Code Hinderence so that a Paladin Character could be created who gains the following abilities:-

Paladin
Detect Evil: Lvl 1-60ft Cone Detects Evil auras.
1st Rd- Evil Presence.
2nd Rd-Location.
3rd Rd- Strength( Evil Priest 5th Level, 2 hd Demon= Mod Strength,10 lvl=High.
Lay On Hands: This is the same as the fighter Core ability but can apply this on other people.
Aura of Courage:- As a 2nd Lvl character grants +1 to Will Saves to all within 10ft radius
Immune to Disease: A 3rd Lvl character cannot contract any disease including Lycanthropy.
Immune to Fear: As a 4th Lvl character they gain an immunity to a Fear Effects if he Spends a Conviction Point, lasts for an hour.
Cure Disease: At 6th Lvl Can cure disease with the use of a Conviction Point.
Prerequisite: Strict Code Hindrance

Overall the Characters gains equal his minus's as long as the Narrator puts in things that challenge the Code of Conduct of the Paladin. Over all I've found that mages want to adventure to find scrolls to put in there spell books so they can cast spontaneously. Priests pray to their gods and bards cherish their instruments, find powers and write them into songs.

Let me know what people think?

[PhelanMahoney]

I know for Rangers, I mix a little bit of all three classes. I end up with a better character in some respects than I would other wise get in D&D.

[stevepro666]

Funny thing about the whole DnD thing is that the DnD classes are terribly out balanced.
Wizards from level 5 become very damaging, by 10th level they are unmanageable by 15th they are ridiculous.
Cleric can out fight any of the other classes in Melee with a few spells making them combat masters.
Rogues at 5th level plus with their backstab ability can kill a single creature with two weapons as long as they can get a flank( pretty easy to do!!) as long as they can hit the things AC despite high hit point values.
Fighters generally get stitched. They get few skill points, limited skill options and feats like cleave, great cleave become pretty useless as the enemy troops take a lot of hits to take down. They struggle to use power attack effectively as their second( and third) attack will miss if they do.
The Cleric and Wizard have a restriction with their limited number of spells per day but the party stops if the Cleric runs out of spell or the PC's will be killed in the next encounter.

I speak from a lot of experience, I DM'd the first D20, 3rd edition game in our group and ran it to 27th level and have DM'd 4 further campaigns, been in at least 5 campaigns in Dnd.
As the levels get higher the combat takes longer and longer and the game ends up as one encounter in an evening, no roleplaying, no story just 1 encounter.
I have been running a Dawnforge Campaign but decided to set down a few things as this is sort of a King Arthur style Campaign. Most soldiers have a maximum of ringmale( studded leather), about 2 thirds of the Knights of the realm have chain mail and a small portion have reinforced chainmail( extra +1 and +2 to the AC). Its had the effect that the characters have a medium AC whilst the smegs have a low AC and can be power attacked and killed in 1 or two blows. The smegs likewise are only 1 to 3rd level meaning that the Players AC's can be hit but only with a roll of 18 to 20 which the players can further diminish using expertise.
Its run well be I wish I'd have found True20 before I'd started.

True20 appears to be very balanced, if you want a Dnd Style Cleric your best option is to have limited Spell choice(12 Powers), have an Experts BAB( 0,+1,+2,+3,+3,+4... etc), Apply a restriction on the Mage to require a spellbook and have the spells he wants to use spontaneouosly on scroll.

The rest works fine.

[Grail]

Funny thing about the whole DnD thing is that the DnD classes are terribly out balanced.
Wizards from level 5 become very damaging, by 10th level they are unmanageable by 15th they are ridiculous.
Cleric can out fight any of the other classes in Melee with a few spells making them combat masters.
Rogues at 5th level plus with their backstab ability can kill a single creature with two weapons as long as they can get a flank( pretty easy to do!!) as long as they can hit the things AC despite high hit point values.
Fighters generally get stitched. They get few skill points, limited skill options and feats like cleave, great cleave become pretty useless as the enemy troops take a lot of hits to take down.

To be honest, this is not that accurate. Running a DnD game now where the characters have moved from 2nd level to 20th, the Fighters more than hold their own. Without them, the group would have been dog food on more than one occassion.

True, the Wizards at high levels can be obscene. But so can a primary combat character. My fiance's Wild Elf 5th level Fighter, 5th level Barbarian, 10th level Frenzied Berserker makes monsters cringe with terror. And the straight 20th level human fighter is no slouch either (a defensive fighter).

Where the fighters fall down is their Will Save. But that's really it. Rogues generally are weak in combat at high levels and should leave Sneak Attack at home. (Most enemies at high level are either too canny, have too many patsies, or simply can't be flanked or sneak attacked).

[stevepro666]

Sorry can't disagree more strongly.
A Cleric of same level from about 8th level onwards will make short work of a fighter as the Clerics AC is unhittable by the Poor Fighter. And if you put a High level NPC fighter in front of a group its the either the Rogue or the Cleric who will wipe the floor with him.
We have a member of our group who is the biggest rules lawyer possible. If there's a way of powering up a character it's this guy who'll find it and he plays Cleric who power up in combat, Druid who Summon loads of powered critters.

In the last game we played the DM( not me) had a powered up Dracolich using the Draconomicon. The group was getting wiped, the fighters couldn't hit it, the mages spells weren't getting through it SR. The Cleric Powered herself up ( the rules lawyer usually plays females!) walked in and the Dragon couldn't hit her except for on a roll of 18-20 and she just beat the hell out of it. The fighters just stood around scratching their armour butts. This is just one example of many.

Don't get me wrong against a low AC critter the fighter can kill with impunity( usually with a two handed weapon) but against the end of game Big Bad he's hopeless.

[ValhallaGH]

Gentlemen (or Ladies, I don't know), this has gotten to the point where it should really be discussed in private messages until you can present a united opinion.

The simple fact is that you've both had a lot of D&D play experience, and that experience has been very consistent. I'll guess that your group structure has also been very consistent, using the same players for almost every game. That's because both things you've seen are true, to some degree or another, depending upon builds, campaigns, and the ability of a player to play their character well. Keep that in mind while you carry on your discussion (hopefully in a slightly different setting, just so this thread doesn't get too badly derailed).

I look forward to hearing any consensus you two can reach.