Running True20 instead of Dnd

[carpedavid]

Well, 'Fireball' is not a clerical spell in D&D. There are a few fire spells (flame strike, searing light) sure, but what you are describing is not really clerical by D&D standards.

So, substitute "flame strike" for "fireball" and I'm all clerical by D&D standards, again.

I'm curious, how many of these clerical spells can you emulate? What about domains? Turning Undead effects?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm

Well, considering that I'm a first level adept, not many .

I think the thing that you're forgetting is that "spells" in the D&D are almost entirely "single effect." One spell does one thing. Powers, in True20, combine serveral often variable effects into one, which allows the adept to acheive the effects of having several spells.

True20 adepts, depending on the powers they take, can replicate the effects of nearly all D&D spells.

The major difference, that I can see, is that, with D&D clerics and wizards, one can swap out the kinds of effects one can produce on a daily basis. True20 adepts can accomplish something like this, by spending a conviction point to gain access to a power that they don't normally have, but it is less easy to accomplish.

I guess I don't tie D&D flavor into mechanics. Therefore, not having a fire and forget spell system doesn't bother me at all. I can still play a fantasy campaign with all of the flavor I expect from D&D without depending on its mechanics. We're doing it now, as a matter of fact, and we're having a blast.

[FCWesel]

So, substitute "flame strike" for "fireball" and I'm all clerical by D&D standards, again.

Well, flamestrike has a fire component, but it's a different spell then 'fireball'. different size and area of effect, not to mention that the spell has a 'divine energy aspect' that counts half the damage as flame and half as 'divine power' and is therefore not subject to being reduced by resistance to fire-based attacks.

But in the big picture of the conversation, that's all besides the point and just picking at nits. Sorry, doidn't mean to go all side-topic on anyone. Apologies.


:: Trying to get back to topic ::


The poster asked mainly two questions: Can you do 'traditional fantasy' and about DnD magic in True20. You can do traditional fantasy, but you can't really simulate the D&D magic system. As carpedavid noted, you could do some effects that come close to emulating some powers (or some range of powers) in D&D, but will not have access to the variety of spells that are in D&D.

As I said before. I dig True20. I know me and mine are going to have a blast with it. BUT I am looking forward to and hoping that that True20 magic book will fill this hole.

[Jonathan Moyer]

Well, flamestrike has a fire component, but it's a different spell then 'fireball'. different size and area of effect, not to mention that the spell has a 'divine energy aspect' that counts half the damage as flame and half as 'divine power' and is therefore not subject to being reduced by resistance to fire-based attacks.

Well, just say half of the flame is "divine fire," and the other half is regular fire. Or say all of it is divine fire. It all depends on the source of the character's power and the source of the defending character's defense. Check out Mutants and Masterminds (True20's parent game) for some discussion on descriptor based effects and how to keep things "balanced."

As I said before. I dig True20. I know me and mine are going to have a blast with it. BUT I am looking forward to and hoping that that True20 magic book will fill this hole.

If the Black Company Campaign Setting is any indication of what will be in True Sorcery, I think you're going to be disappointed. The BCCS magic system doesn't work like D&D magic - unless you're high level, it's tough to do powerful effects without killing your PC (literally), and it's not a fire and forget system. I still don't think you'll be able to simulate what you refer to as D&D style fantasy.

In any event, to more closely approach your conception of D&D magic, you could apply the skill challenge mechanic to powers. You could take a challenge to use the power quicker, use powers simultaneously, or increase the strength of a power. That's a big chunk of what the BCCS does right there, and True Sorcery will probably be similar.

I will say the one thing I miss from D&D magic is the ability to make individualized spells - it's not just an "acid arrow," it's "Melf's acid arrow." That's a nice touch. But in general I find the removal of D&D's "fire and forget, over the top" magic system to be a feature and not a "damn shame." It's one of the things I hate about the D&D genre and I'm glad to see it's gone.

If what you want is D&D with the flexible character creation system and Toughness save, I suggest you just import that to your D&D game and go with it.

[reverend keith]

The one thing that I found lacking with it was the "missing" spells and spell-casting system.

What you find lacking, I have found as a huge selling point for True 20.

Personally, I don't even remotely miss the D&D magic system, and I'm very happy that that system isn't even remotely connected to True 20.

Thank heavens that the Vancian magic system was jettisoned and I can only hope to get even more options via True Sorcerery for a variety of optional systems that can be tailored for whatever I currently want out of my settings magic system. I have to say that I'm really enjoying the trend for new and alternate magic systems for d20, be it feat-based, UA's incantations, or even classes like the Warlock from the Complete Arcane. I'm definately looking forward to True Sorcery.

[ddogwood]

While it would require a certain amount of work, converting the D&D magic system to True20 would be very simple. The conversion rules are even contained in the True20 rulebook. Adepts would gain caster levels instead of Powers, and could cast spells in essentially the same way as they do in D&D. Then you would replace the Power feats with the relevant Metamagic feats, and convert the effects of the spells into the True20 system.

That said, I agree that the True20 system does a better job of representing most fantasy fiction (including the majority of D&D fiction) than the D&D system does. The D&D magic system only works better for the Dying Earth series by Jack Vance, and the Amber series by Roger Zelazny. There may be others, but I'm not familiar with them.

I can only speak for myself, but I find the sheer amount of record-keeping required in the D&D magic system really annoying.

[Turanil]

The D&D magic system only works better for the Dying Earth series by Jack Vance.

Note by the way that where a D&D wizards ends with dozens of spells prepared at higher levels, in Dying Earth, powerful mages are merely able to just memorize four or five spells. So D&D incompletely conveys that feel too.

[Strand0]

I can only speak for myself, but I find the sheer amount of record-keeping required in the D&D magic system really annoying.

Here! Here!
I am playing a Cleric in a D&D 3.5 campaign. I hate/fear going up a level. It is like a college final studing all the NEW spells that are available... and then I feel like I chose the wrong ones anyway.

BUT.. I think a SRD Wizard/Cleric class/spell book might be an interesting addition to True20.
No reason denying it to those that want it. ( And it might be a good way to create evil magic using [non-player] characters)

[The Shadow]

It could be the fact that someone could like the majority of things about True20 (three classes, conviction, toughness saves)...things not easily transported over to D&D maybe...but still want a "spell-list/spells-per-day/magic missile & fireball" type spells system.

I suppose this is true... though personally, like others, I find that getting rid of the clunky D&D magic system is a major selling point of the game. It may indeed have spawned a subgenre of fantasy fiction, but by and large I find that subgenre to not be very good.

Full disclosure: I did read Dragonlance back in the day, and liked it... until the end. (Weis and Hickman can't end a series properly to save their souls. They always screw it up.) But it hasn't held up to repeated reading. And don't get me started on Gygax's and R. A. Salvatore's novels. :)

But it shouldn't be hard to import D&D spellcasting into True20 if you really want to. Others have outlined a skeleton for doing this. I don't at all think it should be built into the system, though. See below.

Also...having a use for 10-15 books (I know there's more, that's what I have) with various d20 based spells in True20 AIDS SELLING True20 to folks over all. Afterall, True20 did manage to make it pretty darn easy to get use out of the dozen monster books I have.

True20 simply cannot compete with D&D in doing "D&Dish" stuff. Green Ronin is an excellent company, but they don't have WotC's muscle. The selling point of True20 is precisely that it's *different*. You do raise a very good point about people wanting to simplify the d20 system yet retain the flavor of the spellcasting, though. I suppose there is such a market.

In any event, to more closely approach your conception of D&D magic, you could apply the skill challenge mechanic to powers. You could take a challenge to use the power quicker, use powers simultaneously, or increase the strength of a power.

Aaronil and I have been working on some "power challenges", yes. Aaron is really creative with 'em! But it looks like True Sorcery will do much the same thing, so we're kinda holding off a bit.

By the way, the D&D magic system isn't really a good fit for Amber's "sorcery", either. True20 would be, but would need an additional mechanic to let a specific "spell" be held and used later. (Only like 5 or 6 at a time.) But Amber's sorcerers can toss around raw power as well, and that's well suited to several existing True20 powers.

I'm working on such a mechanic, as I need something to differentiate "wizards" and "sorcerers" in my D&D homebrew that I'm converting over.

[Dinrohir]

Full disclosure: I did read Dragonlance back in the day, and liked it... until the end. (Weis and Hickman can't end a series properly to save their souls. They always screw it up.) But it hasn't held up to repeated reading. And don't get me started on Gygax's and R. A. Salvatore's novels.

You hit the nail on the head. The popularity of the Dragonlance and Salvatore books amazes me, because the writing is "uneven" at best (I'm being charitable).

[Siroh]

I think that if you utilize the Tough Heroes option, change the hour limit on fatigue penalties to until after eight hours of rest, but give the Adept a break by not adding +1 each time a fatigue check is made at 10 higher than the difficulty (so there is a reason to lower caster level) and you will come especially close.

That isn't to say you don't need to add in new things, Turning becomes the Ward power, but you will probably want a Turning feat that automatically does damage equal to Adept level with a Will save to avoid half the damage (since it is an area effect but not one they can dodge) to any affected critters in the area of the ward. Making appropriate feats & powers for genre is encouraged. And I just thought this up in a few minutes. The rest won't be terribly difficult in my opinion.

So while out of the box, it's somewhat difficult, a few genre rules and some additional options is all it really would take.

[Inalchuk]

I'm the DM who ran my players through the first Dragonlance adventure. We found that True20 really worked well for this particular 1E/2E adventure, since 5th level True20 heroes were able to handle even an adult black dragon (EL 9).

If anything, the True20 magic system simulated Raistlin's physical exhaustion after casting a few spells much better than D&D. Also, True20 combat and its death-spiral wound system contributed more to the flavor of Dragonlance heroes than simply marking off hit points.

I'm in the process of converting an Arcana Evolved adventure to True20, and expect to have even more fun with it than traditional AE. True magic, true drama, true balance: True20!

[Everwolf]

I am looking to do a version of Forgotten Realms. I do plan on having the same classes (built from the system in the Companion) and I remember see someone suggesting converting prestige classes to prestige feats which I am also considering.

I am also looking at converting alignments to nature (Virtues & Vices).

The past couple of weeks I have poured over all the D&D books and Forgotten Realms campaign setting books I have. I spent hours writing up all the spells in each of the books in a spread sheet. But I stopped because I had no idea how I am going to incorporate the spells into True20.

The concern over the spells I have involves Domain spells and Schools/Specializations.

Has anyone had any thought on how to use this in True20? Domains seem pretty simple as they just choose, but specialized wizards (Illusionist, Evokers, etc)

[cthughua]

Create customized powers lists for Specialists and give them some bonus for having another list of powers (opposed) removed from their Power List.

[curseofyig]

Im about 5 sessions deep into a bronze age earth fantasy campaign and True20 wins in all aspects. The powers work great as magic, you may need to toss some imagination in there and more specifically describe the spells cosmetic effect. For instance in my campaign there is a Nubian Medicine man, who has Pain Touch which he refers to as "Sting of the Scorpion". Supernatural Speed as "Aspect of the Cheetah", Phase as "Enter the Spirit realm", etc etc.

The fatigue system so far has worked great for spellcasting, i've always had a gripe against the memorize and forget nature of D&D magic, and experiemented with various point systems that tried to fix it.

Also we treat Spells like Skills, so a player can try all sorts of unlisted effects with his power and its up to the DM to allow it and assign a difficulty. ie. A character with fireshaping states that he wants to summon a Cage of fire to surround his enemy. That makes sense to me, probibly tricky, maybe a DC 20 or 25 and a to hit roll. Bingo. Magic is now FAR more flexible then D&D. We just try to keep it all wrapped up under the characters theme.

[Phantom Archer]

The concern over the spells I have involves Domain spells and Schools/Specializations. Has anyone had any thought on how to use this in True20? Domains seem pretty simple as they just choose, but specialized wizards (Illusionist, Evokers, etc)

I've thought about this myself and one idea I came up with is having a "Domain Feat". Basically for each domain, have a feat that works like Supernatual Talent for two specifically defined Powers For example the "Healing Domain" feat would give talent for Cure and Cure Disease. Of course there should probably be some added benefit to make it more desireable than standard Supernatural Talent (maybe a "spend Conviction for something cool" effect).

Then when the Adept player chooses a god to worship they could choose up to 2 Domain Feats based on the god.